bdiament
Junior Member
Rebel
Posts: 11
Audio Industry Affiliation: Producer, Engineer
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Post by bdiament on Aug 22, 2019 11:00:56 GMT 10
I'd really like to see an audio forum where young enthusiasts, new to the excitement and joy of music and sound, encounter kindness and positivity. This is something sorely lacking on every other audio forum I've visited. (Truth to tell, I wish some of the monikers were more positive too. We need to think of the children and the next generation of music and audio lovers.)
I'm truly hoping this will be the first audio forum where folks share their experiences with kindness and tolerance of differing points of view, and with joy in our shared enthusiasm for music and audio. May everything posted here and everything viewed here be something encouraging to young people new to these pursuits. And to us older folks too. ;-}
A place like this is sorely needed on the audio web. Thank you to David for starting it.
Happy Listening to all!
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 22, 2019 15:11:27 GMT 10
I'd really like to see an audio forum where young enthusiasts, new to the excitement and joy of music and sound, encounter kindness and positivity. This is something sorely lacking on every other audio forum I've visited. (Truth to tell, I wish some of the monikers were more positive too. We need to think of the children and the next generation of music and audio lovers.) I'm truly hoping this will be the first audio forum where folks share their experiences with kindness and tolerance of differing points of view, and with joy in our shared enthusiasm for music and audio. May everything posted here and everything viewed here be something encouraging to young people new to these pursuits. And to us older folks too. ;-} A place like this is sorely needed on the audio web. Thank you to David for starting it. Happy Listening to all! Best regards, Barry www.soundkeeperrecordings.comwww.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.comwww.barrydiamentaudio.comThanks Barry, It is a great honour having you join us.
Cheers David
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Post by cj66 on Aug 22, 2019 23:27:31 GMT 10
What I would like to see one day on a Audio forum is two sections that would be like the following (could be named anything instead of the subjective/objective but something like) Reviews (Subjective) - Only needing your observations, listening Reviews (Objective) - Can be technical, with tests, delve as deep as one likes etc At least that way people could post in a section that they prefer without hopefully leading to too much conflict and the round we go scenario that seems to sometimes follow. Another large forum has this :
Music Downloads and Streaming Music in General Music Analysis - Objective and Subjective We can further refine the existing area after a settling in period, by seeing how many posts each existing area attracts, then amalgamate some if need be.
There used to be a common practice in the HiFi mags where a reviewer would proffer his thoughts and then another technical contributor would analyse the unit and also give his thoughts on how the measurements confirmed, or not, what the subjective review had found but without any prejudice, just a simple this is why or can't see why in these measurements.
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Post by ROWUK on Aug 23, 2019 7:01:41 GMT 10
It isn't the shielded power cable that bothers me - it is the meaningless description that it sounds better. Now, the "bass" can change with a change in equipment (including cables). What made the person perceive that it is better? What qualities made the original worse or the new one "better". Why did the person not notice a deficit before the comparison. Was any kind of meaningful analysis present? Could it simply be that the polarity changed or did the person not even consider this to be a parameter. I dislike good/better/best descriptions as I have yet to meet an audiophile that could defend the claim. Important parameters were either not considered or even after repeated asking, not delivered. Example: The person claiming magic has mid bass deficient "full range" drivers in a back loaded horn with a cut off of 50 Hz. What meaning can "better" bass have? How much extension and quality of extension do we need to talk about bass? Do we even have common terms for ULF, LF, mid bass, upper bass?
I would really appreciate the perception part to be our guide. Good/better/best is not perception. They are symptoms of wanting to belong to an exclusive club.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 23, 2019 11:28:00 GMT 10
Hi Robin
I take your point . However There are many things that we currently have no iron clad explanation for, such as the tonal changes that many people report when using different types of USB cables for Audio . Better Bass is not just about how low the frequency response of the LF drivers goes, with drums etc. it also has to do with the rise and fall times of the LF waveform which is also governed by the contribution from the HF drivers. Yes, I agree we do need better explanations of what we hear in many cases.
I have attached a small sample of the waveform from the recording of Yim Hoh_Man-Poem of Chinese Drum. Click on the image for a larger image.
Kind Regards Alex Attachments:
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rms
New Member
Posts: 4
Audio Industry Affiliation: None
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Post by rms on Aug 24, 2019 15:53:33 GMT 10
Head-fi has a strict DBT free zone, the results peak for themselves. There's far less squabbling about controversial viewpoints and pointless threads. What's best forum has a distinct cable thread where observations on using different cables are posted and by some consensus, a pattern does emerge, but with variance of so many devices, and each inter-playing with each other, the effect of the cables can vary widely and that includes all cables, power interconnects and speakers.
Maybe MAP could set the foundation stone.
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Post by ROWUK on Aug 25, 2019 7:59:56 GMT 10
Hi Robin
I take your point . However There are many things that we currently have no iron clad explanation for, such as the tonal changes that many people report when using different types of USB cables for Audio . Better Bass is not just about how low the frequency response of the LF drivers goes, with drums etc. it also has to do with the rise and fall times of the LF waveform which is also governed by the contribution from the HF drivers. Yes, I agree we do need better explanations of what we hear in many cases.
I have attached a small sample of the waveform from the recording of Yim Hoh_Man-Poem of Chinese Drum. Click on the image for a larger image.
Kind Regards Alex Alex, if we are going to make a claim, then we should be able to back it up with at least a description of what good and better means. The audiophile parakeets only quote standard blah blah instead of what really happens inside of their brain. IN another forum there is a discussion about the difference in sound between two power cables. While I do not deny the possibility of a difference, those making such a claim better have some compelling story. You have long claimed a difference in sound between storage devices. You include what you hear and offer help to others to reproduce such. Then it is up to us to try and succeed or fail and think about that result. There is no such thing as "fast bass". Speed comes from the harmonics of the note which is at a much higher frequency (not bass). Wind and string instruments generally have harmonics that are multiples of the fundamental pitch. Percussion instruments can have harmonics that are not mathematically related. This comes from the harmonics of the think being hit, and the behavior of the resonance cavity.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 25, 2019 9:12:24 GMT 10
Hi Robin
I take your point . However There are many things that we currently have no iron clad explanation for, such as the tonal changes that many people report when using different types of USB cables for Audio . Better Bass is not just about how low the frequency response of the LF drivers goes, with drums etc. it also has to do with the rise and fall times of the LF waveform which is also governed by the contribution from the HF drivers. Yes, I agree we do need better explanations of what we hear in many cases.
I have attached a small sample of the waveform from the recording of Yim Hoh_Man-Poem of Chinese Drum. Click on the image for a larger image.
Kind Regards Alex Alex, if we are going to make a claim, then we should be able to back it up with at least a description of what good and better means. The audiophile parakeets only quote standard blah blah instead of what really happens inside of their brain. IN another forum there is a discussion about the difference in sound between two power cables. While I do not deny the possibility of a difference, those making such a claim better have some compelling story. You have long claimed a difference in sound between storage devices. You include what you hear and offer help to others to reproduce such. Then it is up to us to try and succeed or fail and think about that result. There is no such thing as "fast bass". Speed comes from the harmonics of the note which is at a much higher frequency (not bass). Wind and string instruments generally have harmonics that are multiples of the fundamental pitch. Percussion instruments can have harmonics that are not mathematically related. This comes from the harmonics of the think being hit, and the behavior of the resonance cavity. Hi Robin
When I reported hearing differences between the PSU cables in that discussion, the tests were performed under non sighted conditions. Only the person setting up the cable changes knew which cables we were listening to, however all present reported hearing the same small difference, including David. This was at the house of a Medical Specialist friend of David. As for differences in sound between .wav files saved to different storage devices, you would be aware that my reports were verified in a series of DBTs performed by E.E. Martin Colloms, who gave good descriptions of the differences in various Hi Fi Critic forum threads, and published a brief confirmation in Hi Fi Critic magazine vol.6 No.1.
Presently, I am able to demonstrate this using uploaded Music Videos , where you can not only hear the differences , you can see them too, both at the same time. However you would need to use something better than a typical laptop, preferably using a separate good quality monitor, with the audio side connected into your main system. One of our members confirmed this with the videos placed side by for viewing via his 4K monitor. David has also verified my reports via his own 4K TV
Regards Alex.
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 28, 2019 16:29:24 GMT 10
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) ROWUKAlex, I don't think Robin is challenging your findings per se so much as the need to effectively communicate them, which I believe he said you did so. Its the "good", "better" and other highly relative terms that appear to annoy Robin as being meaningless (if I am understanding). Robin, it is great to get a musician's perspective. The audiophile descriptors, for me do have meaning only because I am used to them and ,rightly or wrongly, associate them with a characteristic. So it could be "bladebla-bla", its just a word, if you know what I mean. I totally get your point about needing a better anchoring in more useful constructs. When audiophiles talk of "fast bass" I take it to mean - In particular a well articulated and tuneful bass line with good transient response - how quickly the attack and decay times can be tracked or followed by the recording or reproduction or the room such that the "tune" is not lost in an homogenized blob of sound. To do this woofers have to stop and start, moving fair amounts of air, quickly and precisely. Attack - the onset of a sound and rise time the speed of the attack. Sounds with a short rise time, such as a hit of a drum have a "fast attack". Sounds with a longer rise time have a slow attack, such as a flute. The opposite of attack would be decay. So in this context “fast bass” means something to me. Not sure how harmonics relate to speed. Their arrival times should be the same, obviously different wavelengths and frequencies? David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 28, 2019 17:19:06 GMT 10
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) ROWUK Alex, I don't think Robin is challenging your findings per se so much as the need to effectively communicate them, which I believe he said you did so. David
I know that Robin isn't challenging me and that he didn't disagree about my communications in this area. Robin was a member of Rock Grotto forum previously too. I am simply saying that the SMPS problem is greatly understated, as can be seen in the magazine article that I sent Robin a copy of. Proper earthing is a really hairy area. In my case, I even extend the Earth (0 volts side) of the L and R outputs of the DAC through the Preamp and into the Power Amplifier. To achieve this I also switch through only the "earth" side of the input that has been selected. The earth reference actually comes from the Power amplifier in my case, with the " earth" side of the DAC outputs not being connected to it's chassis which is earthed. I also connect the metalwork of the Preamplifier and Power amplifier together via a lead plugged into banana sockets which are connected to chassis on both. The power supplies in both the DAC and Preamplifier are not earthed .
Regards Alex
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Post by ROWUK on Aug 29, 2019 5:13:39 GMT 10
I certainly was not challenging the concept. In my list of priorities, the performance playing qualities come first, then the plausible presentation, then "space and geometry" after that things like "articulation" and noise floor. Very often, the "better" reported has nothing to do with my top priorities and therefore less "significance" in my world.
The earthing scheme has a dramatic effect on sound quality. I ground everything in a star pattern. It simply follows my belief of getting problems solved as early as possible.
The fast in bass is not from a fast woofer, rather an articulate upper bass/midrange. The harmonics give the impression of speed. The snap (and thump) is often equalized in as the engineer is not content with "real". We can measure how fast 40 Hz at the speed of sound has to rise for a given sound pressure. It is certainly an argument for efficient speakers.
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