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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 17, 2019 15:28:36 GMT 10
Your Say - What would you like this forum to be?
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Post by ROWUK on Aug 17, 2019 22:44:29 GMT 10
What I would love: Exchange, dialog, resource, dedication to process. I would also like to see technical papers covering perception and reproduction.
What I don't want it to be is another snake oil and pissing contest about resolution. If someone can "hear" a difference, then explain what that means, what it does and how we get there. Better bass with shorter power cables is not "adequate" because we have no reference what was worse, what the power lines and connectors north and south of the cable was. Mine is bigger and better or "your ears are worse than mine" is not a start of something better.
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jkenny
Full Member
Posts: 83
About Me: Audio equipment designer forever in pursuit of more realistic & engaging music reproduction purely because of the extra enjoyment of music created by such reproduction.
http://Ciunas.biz
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Post by jkenny on Aug 18, 2019 4:45:54 GMT 10
What I would love: Exchange, dialog, resource, dedication to process. I would also like to see technical papers covering perception and reproduction. What I don't want it to be is another snake oil and pissing contest about resolution. If someone can "hear" a difference, then explain what that means, what it does and how we get there. Better bass with shorter power cables is not "adequate" because we have no reference what was worse, what the power lines and connectors north and south of the cable was. Mine is bigger and better or "your ears are worse than mine" is not a start of something better. Agreed I would like to see reasonable but varied opinions which are respectfully listened to & engaged with I can bring over some technical research papers on Auditory Scene Analysis -one strand in auditory perception research |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 9:17:23 GMT 10
Respectful discussion is all I seek. There are plenty of points of view out of the internet and even people who adhere to the same general views on any given topic can have conflict on some minutiae. Some people hold their views closely and others (I think myself included) are happy to be challenged. But wherever we sit on a given subject, I know from my own experience that we can learn so much more if we don't take a defensive or aggressive stance.
Mark (not a Scumbag).
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Post by rockfish on Aug 21, 2019 10:24:42 GMT 10
What I would like to see one day on a Audio forum is two sections that would be like the following
(could be named anything instead of the subjective/objective but something like)
Reviews (Subjective) - Only needing your observations, listening
Reviews (Objective) - Can be technical, with tests, delve as deep as one likes etc
At least that way people could post in a section that they prefer without hopefully leading to too much conflict and the round we go scenario that seems to sometimes follow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 11:03:33 GMT 10
What I would like to see one day on a Audio forum is two sections that would be like the following (could be named anything instead of the subjective/objective but something like) Reviews (Subjective) - Only needing your observations, listening Reviews (Objective) - Can be technical, with tests, delve as deep as one likes etc At least that way people could post in a section that they prefer without hopefully leading to too much conflict and the round we go scenario that seems to sometimes follow. Why can't a review be both? If by objective, you mean it features measurements then I don't see that as being mutually exclusive to having subjective remarks as well. Do you consider reviews that rely on blind testing to exclude subjectivity? Not trying to start an argument. I just wonder if creating 2 silos is constructive as some reviews may have elements of both objective and subjective in them. |
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 21, 2019 11:14:13 GMT 10
What I would like to see one day on a Audio forum is two sections that would be like the following (could be named anything instead of the subjective/objective but something like) Reviews (Subjective) - Only needing your observations, listening Reviews (Objective) - Can be technical, with tests, delve as deep as one likes etc At least that way people could post in a section that they prefer without hopefully leading to too much conflict and the round we go scenario that seems to sometimes follow. Nice to see you here Rocky ! I hear ya and hopefully the idea behind what you are suggesting is built into Code of Conduct and A Tribute to Dave Ayers who was a principal instigator behind MAP. Regarding the latter I also need to recognize frednorc for his great work and countless others, such as yourself, supporting the concept of such a group. To the specifics of your question I am wanting to get away from the the 'great divide' that has spawned in turn, 'the great debate' complete with tribes and war paint. What I humbly suggest is start your post/s with a guide to what is or is not off topic. This can help others know if you are happy to be challenged or just not interested. Your 'challengers' have every right to their opinion as I see it, just not to force you into a contest of ideas if you are not inclined. Cheers David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong |
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator 
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 21, 2019 13:21:28 GMT 10
What I would like to see one day on a Audio forum is two sections that would be like the following (could be named anything instead of the subjective/objective but something like) Reviews (Subjective) - Only needing your observations, listening Reviews (Objective) - Can be technical, with tests, delve as deep as one likes etc At least that way people could post in a section that they prefer without hopefully leading to too much conflict and the round we go scenario that seems to sometimes follow. Another large forum has this :
Music Downloads and Streaming
Music in General
Music Analysis - Objective and Subjective We can further refine the existing area after a settling in period, by seeing how many posts each existing area attracts, then amalgamate some if need be.
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Post by rockfish on Aug 21, 2019 20:28:51 GMT 10
Why can't a review be both? If by objective, you mean it features measurements then I don't see that as being mutually exclusive to having subjective remarks as well. Do you consider reviews that rely on blind testing to exclude subjectivity? Not trying to start an argument. I just wonder if creating 2 silos is constructive as some reviews may have elements of both objective and subjective in them. I was thinking along the lines of say this hypothetical example Lets try the tricky one  Say someone tries a better shielded power cable and hears a difference in their system and posts about it. The norm is you might get a whole lot of replies like :- this can't happen, Science say this...., measurements say this ....
What then happens is the thread tends to go no where or others do not want to post about hearing an improvement.
Lets say you kept it to only listening and posting thoughts. A pattern may emerge as more posting give their say improvements. Once we get lots and lots posting, we may find that a common denominator in they were all using Class D amps. This then could be thought along the lines maybe there is some sort of interference from the Class D amps and maybe a shielded power cable has helped in this instance.
Just using that as an example as it could be Dacs, Amps, Interconnects, tweaks etc but it would be nice to get a lot of input, where patterns may emerge.
At least the thread could build with people saying yes or no they heard a difference for them in their system without having to go into explaining why it may be so, when they most probably have no idea why and would just take a great big guess.
Then the other section could go into explaining or theorizing or whatever about a product that people try. Sometimes this section can be to much for a new person and they tend again not to post, so they have the other section.
Hope that makes a little sense of what I was purposing.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 21, 2019 21:23:36 GMT 10
Why can't a review be both? If by objective, you mean it features measurements then I don't see that as being mutually exclusive to having subjective remarks as well. Do you consider reviews that rely on blind testing to exclude subjectivity? Not trying to start an argument. I just wonder if creating 2 silos is constructive as some reviews may have elements of both objective and subjective in them. I was thinking along the lines of say this hypothetical example Lets try the tricky one Say someone tries a better shielded power cable and hears a difference in their system and posts about it. The norm is you might get a whole lot of replies like :- this can't happen, Science say this...., measurements say this ....
What then happens is the thread tends to go no where or others do not want to post about hearing an improvement.
Hi Rockfish That is a major part of the reason that David started this forum.
This is quite a tricky area. Perhaps in their initial post in the thread that they start, they could make clear the direction they wish the thread to take, whether Subjective reports only, where the other posters also detail the equipment they are using,and discuss their own personal observations in that area, or whether they are more interested in theoretical discussions including measurements. Sometimes they may be happy to accept all contributions that are well reasoned, as long as they don't demand proof with measurements, or quote technical references etc. that are often posted in order to shut down the discussion where the original poster doesn't come from a technical background. That can be quite intimidating. If the replies go against the wishes expressed by the Original Poster they could then request Admin to decide whether the thread should be moderated or not. Let's see David's thoughts on this issue too . Regards Alex
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 21, 2019 22:01:42 GMT 10
Lets try the tricky one Say someone tries a better shielded power cable and hears a difference in their system and posts about it.The norm is you might get a whole lot of replies like :- this can't happen, Science say this...., measurements say this .... What then happens is the thread tends to go no where or others do not want to post about hearing an improvement. Lets say you kept it to only listening and posting thoughts. A pattern may emerge as more posting give their say improvements. Once we get lots and lots posting, we may find that a common denominator in they were all using Class D amps. This then could be thought along the lines maybe there is some sort of interference from the Class D amps and maybe a shielded power cable has helped in this instance. Just using that as an example as it could be Dacs, Amps, Interconnects, tweaks etc but it would be nice to get a lot of input, where patterns may emerge. At least the thread could build with people saying yes or no they heard a difference for them in their system without having to go into explaining why it may be so, when they most probably have no idea why and would just take a great big guess. Then the other section could go into explaining or theorizing or whatever about a product that people try. Sometimes this section can be to much for a new person and they tend again not to post, so they have the other section. Hope that makes a little sense of what I was purposing. Not so tricky Rocky. Your ability to explore your listening experiences is written into the code of conduct, as is someone else's desire to explore a post with no discussion of music listening involved, just measurements. Simply state the on/off topic parameters in the OP. The tricky part remains in an open debate where all comers are involved and all opinions offered. The spirit of the group is to have a respectful discussion among friends not an argument between people trying to force their viewpoint onto others. As soon as attacks or veiled attacks cloaked in sarcasm occur it is against the code of conduct. I cannot see how anyone wishing to help others, and in good faith by providing them with the benefit of their perspective, would use ridicule as their method. People that want to argue for some sort of pleasure or or other agenda will likely not fit in here.The same applies for those that feel that they have some sort of inalienable right to repeatedly challenge no matter what the cost and irrespective of the challenge being unwelcome. |
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jkenny
Full Member
Posts: 83
About Me: Audio equipment designer forever in pursuit of more realistic & engaging music reproduction purely because of the extra enjoyment of music created by such reproduction.
http://Ciunas.biz
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Post by jkenny on Aug 22, 2019 4:37:32 GMT 10
IMO, all audio replay systems are a complex system of interacting devices & when people report their subjective impressions, it makes it useful for readers if specific tracks & the differences heard can be specified, if possible. Sometimes a specific difference(s) is difficult to identify but it's still useful, if possible - it allows others evaluate the same track(s).
I find this sort of approach elevates a listening impression from a purely subjective, individual opinion to something more substantial.
Note I'm not suggesting ABX testing as I find this type of listening "test" is flawed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 8:30:28 GMT 10
I was thinking along the lines of say this hypothetical example Lets try the tricky one Say someone tries a better shielded power cable and hears a difference in their system and posts about it. The norm is you might get a whole lot of replies like :- this can't happen, Science say this...., measurements say this ....
What then happens is the thread tends to go no where or others do not want to post about hearing an improvement.
I see where you are coming from now. I was thinking that purely measurement based discussions intended to go in the "http://music-and-perception.boards.net/board/4/audio-signals" subsection. |
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Post by rockfish on Aug 22, 2019 9:38:20 GMT 10
I see where you are coming from now. I was thinking that purely measurement based discussions intended to go in the "http://music-and-perception.boards.net/board/4/audio-signals" subsection. Yes like a Technical section and non technical section. I love reading about other peoples simple listening impressions online on an item/tweak etc. I also take it for what it is, like most of us do.
Especially new people maybe finally moving to better equipment in their life. You can feel their enthusiasm and excitement in their posts.
For me personally I sometimes just want the simple things in this Hobby and do find debates can sometimes take away the pleasure for me. Some is good but their are so many sites that it just the norm throughout.
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 22, 2019 10:03:33 GMT 10
I was thinking that purely measurement based discussions intended to go in the "http://music-and-perception.boards.net/board/4/audio-signals" subsection.
Should we drop the "measurement" part of the description as being confusing or restricted to this audio signals board? It wasnt meant to imply that. maybe "audio signals" and their analysis should just be grouped with recording, mixing, and mastering
David
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Say someone tries a better shielded power cable and hears a difference in their system and posts about it.