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Post by ROWUK on Feb 9, 2020 23:04:35 GMT 10
I am in the think through stage of improving my playback. Each loudspeaker currently has 2x 12" woofers in a sealed 80 liter cabinet (Fc-500 Hz). Measured LF extension is more or less flat to 30-35 Hz. Efficiency is close to 100dB/watt. The listening room is about 20 square meters large.
When listening, the presentation is currently large with lots of "space" and "depth". Comparing my feelings with live concerts, there is a certain amount of "tactile" sensation missing - even in classical music (my most listened to genre). I am not talking about slam. Even live chamber music with no real LF at all has this parameter. A solo lute or voice can show this. There is a certain amount of sensation currently there (more than most systems that I have heard elsewhere), just not as much as I would like. I listen to a lot of my playback at very much live levels (especially chamber music). I have experimented extensively with equalization, various subwoofers, relocating the speakers. I can get more bass, but not that "tactile" feeling.
Has anyone experimented with tactile perception in audio (not shakin yer booty...).
I am not looking for a recipe or recommendations for new hardware. I am more interested where it comes from and how to manipulate it.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 10, 2020 8:14:14 GMT 10
I am in the think through stage of improving my playback. Each loudspeaker currently has 2x 12" woofers in a sealed 80 liter cabinet (Fc-500 Hz). Measured LF extension is more or less flat to 30-35 Hz. Efficiency is close to 100dB/watt. The listening room is about 20 square meters large. When listening, the presentation is currently large with lots of "space" and "depth". Comparing my feelings with live concerts, there is a certain amount of "tactile" sensation missing - even in classical music (my most listened to genre). I am not talking about slam. Even live chamber music with no real LF at all has this parameter. A solo lute or voice can show this. There is a certain amount of sensation currently there (more than most systems that I have heard elsewhere), just not as much as I would like. I listen to a lot of my playback at very much live levels (especially chamber music). I have experimented extensively with equalization, various subwoofers, relocating the speakers. I can get more bass, but not that "tactile" feeling. Has anyone experimented with tactile perception in audio (not shakin yer booty...). I am not looking for a recipe or recommendations for new hardware. I am more interested where it comes from and how to manipulate it. Robin You probably don't want to hear this, but this is why my DIY DAC, Class A Preamp/H.A. and 15W Class A Power Amplifier, (as in Rock Grotto forum) are all fully D.C. coupled with even the "earth" sides of the selected input switched through the Preamplifier to the Power Amplifier. The result is a feeling of precision in the LF area with speakers that go low enough, without the need for additional Sub Woofers etc. Yes, you can feel it in your chest with suitable source material too. You don't need CDs that go down to 5HZ either.
Kind Regards Alex
P.S. It's not so easy to do this when using Vacuum Tube amplifiers and Output transformers.
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Post by cj66 on Feb 11, 2020 3:09:31 GMT 10
I think I know where Robin is coming from on this.
I've heard very similar or even identical systems sound poor, ok, good and then really special. No swap outs, repositioning or cable tweakery would change the overall perception on the presence or lack thereof in feeling.
The only radical changes in this area were brought about by room treatment (done by those knowledgeable on the subject). Though maybe not complete in their effectiveness, never the less worthwhile.
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Post by ROWUK on Feb 12, 2020 5:12:21 GMT 10
Alex, I think that you are talking about something else. The effect That I am trying to define is something subtle like a caress on the cheek, not a kick in the balls. It can be present without any LF in the signal at all. Sometimes a whisp of wind can cause goosebumps. Sometimes we could swear that something touched us.
I have no lack of bass (well, down to 30 Hz) or slam. I have no lack of space or geometry. Big instruments sound big, small instruments proportional. Voices are very realistic - at least when they are recorded that way.
Perhaps someone has measured the threshold of sound waves „heard“ through skin nerves?
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 12, 2020 8:15:25 GMT 10
I think I know where Robin is coming from on this. I've heard very similar or even identical systems sound poor, ok, good and then really special. No swap outs, repositioning or cable tweakery would change the overall perception on the presence or lack thereof in feeling. The only radical changes in this area were brought about by room treatment (done by those knowledgeable on the subject). Though maybe not complete in their effectiveness, never the less worthwhile. Hi Chris Yes, proper room treatments can make a marked improvement, however the preciseness of DC coupling also plays a part , right through the whole spectrum . You may recall that Alan Pagan nicknamed my Class A amplifier the "Holo Amp" as in Holographic . Getting rid of capacitors in the signal coupling and Feedback areas does make a worthwhile improvement, as all capacitors do have a signature, even high quality Polypropylene types. My system is completely D.C. coupled from the DAC, through the Preamp to the 15W Class A With a high quality set up you should even be able to get quite a degree of Surround Sound from just 2 front speakers from well recorded material, even from well recorded TV soapies. Years ago, there was an episode of Home and Away where the main character was injured, and in a small leaking boat floating in the ocean. I could hear the waves lapping around the boat from ALL directions !!! It was so damn realistic . About a year ago my son came tunning into my room asking where all the running water was coming from. It was a scene in a well recorded movie on TV.
Kind Regards Alex
P.S. A down sampled from 5.1 track such as Queen-Another One Bites the Dust is also capable of a superb illusion of Surround Sound WITHOUT a Dolby Decoder if your system is good enough, as is the movie Avatar.
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Post by ROWUK on Feb 13, 2020 7:57:52 GMT 10
This is what I listen with.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 13, 2020 11:38:47 GMT 10
This is what I listen with. Hi Robin Can you list your equipment chain, including source, type of digital output (USB, SPDIF etc.) DAC, Pre and Power amplifiers ? I have seen way too many implementations using laptops etc. to not know that this area is a weak point. Even a bog standard Mac Mini is lacklustre without a decent aftermarket Linear PSU,such as that designed by E.E. John Swenson, and is capable of marked audible improvements. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by ROWUK on Feb 14, 2020 9:02:38 GMT 10
1) MacMini with SSD, optimised operating system (you sent me some stuff during the RG days), linear power supply (my own design) and BitPerfect 2) Focusrite Forte ADC/DAC with external linear power supply. Output is USB (with power line disconnected)to the MacMini 3) DIY linear tracking turntable in a very heavy marble plinth/Ortofon MC30 cartridge/T30 step up transformer/DIY valve phono preamp 4) DIY Pass B1 preamp/buffer with external linear power supply 5) passive line level crossovers built into the amplifiers 6) 3 channels of SE Pentode amplifiers per side: a DH 307A for the woofer/lower mids, EL84 for the upper mids/lower HF and EL84 for the HF. OPTs matched to the frequency range: big inductance for the 307A, wide range for the mids and a very fast Sowter tweeter OPT for the top. Amp designs are by Alex Kitic. Schematics can be found here: rh-amps.blogspot.com Power supplies are LCRCRC and FRED diodes - no tube rectification. This also applies to the MacMini and Focusrite. I am very much convinced that good power supplies need inductors. 7) The speakers are also DIY. 2 FANE Colossus Neodymium 12" - the bottom one low passed at 150 Hz, the top one low passed at about 500 Hz. Cones treated with Bud Purvines EnABL system. Sealed box/sand filled walls with about 80 litres volume. The Fanes were picked for the incredible amount of "tone" and lack of bad distortion/frequency response habits. The midrange horn with Faital HF146 (also with tons of tone and no bad habits) is band passed between 500 and 10 Khz. The Infinity EMIT HE planar tweeters are crossed over at about 11K. I use two to limit vertical dispersion. All crossover slopes are 6dB/8va. All drivers are physically time aligned to my listening sweet spot. Interconnects are all DIY using Klotz wire intended for studio use. The wire was intended for balanced use but I have wired them with the shield only connected to the "preamp" side. The rack is mounted directly to the plastered and wall papered cement block wall. The glass shelves have wire mesh and are grounded. I have a filtered dedicated power line with no other electrical devices attached. The TV is connected through a small isolation transformer. More important are about 2000 select LPs and 600 CDs (the best ones ripped). There is NOTHING about this playback that gives me any urge to experiment with hardware (except maybe ULF 16-30 Hz). Instruments/vocals have real timbre, proportional size. The space between the instruments is what I hear on stage. Noise floor is very low and very black. At around 100dB/watt/meter, my amps (5-8 Watts) have more than enough grunt and headroom - even for full out symphonic music. I have never heard a setup with more "depth". I would call the setup "revealing" but not in an audiophile way, rather revealing for a musician. Many recordings can be "read" like a score - everything in place. No excessive "detail" or implied resolution. The soul of the music is present in great abundance. It is simply a music making machine.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 14, 2020 9:38:31 GMT 10
1) MacMini with SSD, optimised operating system (you sent me some stuff during the RG days), linear power supply (my own design) and BitPerfect Hi Robin
SSDs can alter the sound way more than an HDD and are very picky in the PSU area , and can also radiate a lot of crap. In fact, enough to affect nearby WiFi !!! (Al.fe who designed my internal LG GGW H20L BR writer sent me an article about the problem) My 2 internal SSDs use shielded PSU leads, and are also mounted inside metal bays in my PC. In my case I use a modified JLH PSU add on to give them a very low noise +5V supply (<4uV noise) from the internal +12V supply. Yes, the very low noise does matter, but you also need to have a very low and FLAT output impedance from virtually D.C. to >100kHz , with 1MHZ preferably. BitPerfect means almost 5/8 of SFA ! It's mainly the PSU area that governs how both Analogue and Digital sound. Do you have a schematic of your PSU that you could email me ? You may find the attached about improving PSU cables of interest. audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/#comments
Kind Regards Alex
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Post by ROWUK on Feb 14, 2020 11:27:21 GMT 10
I‘ll have to draw the schematic. It has been several years and several mods. I even tried LiPo batteries on the MacMini. I was not impressed. Transformer to bridge with FRED diodes - no snubbers, choke, then CRCRC, then voltage regulator followed by bypassed C. That is it. Low noise, low impedance, isolation from the mains.
I have less sound issues with TLC VNAND SSDs than with HDDs. On the Mac everything works better with the SSD. I used to create a RAMDisk to playback, that is no longer necessary. I do not use WLAN. The MacMini is connected with gigabit ethernet to my network. The media server (Synology) uses HDDs in a RAID1 array. The Mac always buffers the currently playing file locally.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 14, 2020 20:13:53 GMT 10
I‘ll have to draw the schematic. It has been several years and several mods. I even tried LiPo batteries on the MacMini. I was not impressed. Transformer to bridge with FRED diodes - no snubbers, choke, then CRCRC, then voltage regulator followed by bypassed C. That is it. Low noise, low impedance, isolation from the mains. I have less sound issues with TLC VNAND SSDs than with HDDs. On the Mac everything works better with the SSD. I used to create a RAMDisk to playback, that is no longer necessary. I do not use WLAN. The MacMini is connected with gigabit ethernet to my network. The media server (Synology) uses HDDs in a RAID1 array. The Mac always buffers the currently playing file locally. Hi Robin I have emailed you a copy of the .pdf mentioned. Also, with the Mac Mini, John Swenson also designed a fan controller used with the onboard PWM fan controller (around 25kHz "square wave" pulses) to virtually eliminate RF/EMI from the fan, resulting in a further audible improvement. The attached link may be of interest too? audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/
Kind Regards Alex
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Post by cj66 on Feb 16, 2020 0:23:07 GMT 10
With laptops moving over to m.2 ssd cards I guess making psu improvements for them is going to get a bit tricky.
I've had both my laptop and work AIO open recently and was thinking about this. The laptop would require an injector style adaptor socket and some funky surgery, though an AIO should have enough space to facilitate a neater solution.
My lappy is still on 2.5" ssd but has the m.2 port going spare. The AIO is still running it's HDD, mainly due to me thinking it could take the virtually unused 2.5 ssd I had lying around, unfortunately the bay and bracket for the HDD is so bespoke it was no no on fitting well. M.2 drive on order....
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 16, 2020 8:54:13 GMT 10
With laptops moving over to m.2 ssd cards I guess making psu improvements for them is going to get a bit tricky. I've had both my laptop and work AIO open recently and was thinking about this. The laptop would require an injector style adaptor socket and some funky surgery, though an AIO should have enough space to facilitate a neater solution. My lappy is still on 2.5" ssd but has the m.2 port going spare. The AIO is still running it's HDD, mainly due to me thinking it could take the virtually unused 2.5 ssd I had lying around, unfortunately the bay and bracket for the HDD is so bespoke it was no no on fitting well. M.2 drive on order.... Hi Chris Unfortunately, this change to M.2 SSD is going to almost certainly degrade audio performance to some extent due to them being powered from the Motherboard instead of a lower noise more direct connection to the PSU. I have found that even with ripping music to an internal HDD that the actual PSU area of the OS SSD still governs to some extent how the ripped file will sound Recently I compared a rip made to the same folder of an HDD using the original OS HDD, and then a brand new rip using the more recent OS SSD powered by a low noise JLH PSU add-on which also regulated the internal +12V to a squeaky clean +5V for the OS SSD. Everything matters!
You could use the M.2 port for non critical storage of stuff such as documents, images , YouTube videos etc. thus freeing up the 2.5'' SSD for the storage of your highest quality music .
Kind Regards Alex
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Post by ROWUK on Feb 17, 2020 6:43:15 GMT 10
I am not sure that it will "degrade" performance. We will always have the possibility for external memory - whether that be USB 1/2/C or network attached. It could very well be that a properly designed streamer will NOT use standard computer mainboards or memory. I do not see this as a problem. We just need to keep our eyes on the big picture and not get caught up in pseudo technical issues.
Enjoyment in life is seldom dependent on "optimal" technical preconditions. It is based on optimal integration of what we can make possible. I have to admit that in the last 30 years great sound has been easier to get than ever before! My reference points for great sound have not changed very much however.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Feb 17, 2020 7:32:30 GMT 10
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