|
Post by cj66 on Dec 8, 2019 18:45:15 GMT 10
I don't have a copy of this album on any format and am only familiar with the tracks Give A Little Bit and From Now On.
This recording would definitely fall into the nasty catagory.
Comparing to John's mixes on BIA and COTC;
The guitars are tinny and harsh, the vocals are scratchy with little inflection, the bass is pretty tuneless and thuddy and there is very audible warble on longer or sutained notes along with decays.
To me it sounds like a poor MP3 offering. I streamed it from my laptop to my very basic Teac/Mission background system and it actually sounded alright on that. Maybe this was mixed to sound good on cheap replay systems i.e radio friendly?
EDIT
Reading Robin's comments he seems to have found similar but explained himself rather better than I have and with more insight.
|
|
|
Post by ROWUK on Dec 8, 2019 19:06:50 GMT 10
To kind of round out the original title of the post: Digital is not intrinsically harsh as Johns decodes prove. DolbyA and EQ errors are simply poor work in the mastering studio. These engineers out for the quick buck are just like politicians only in office to get reelected. I think that we are doing John a minor disservice by burying his wonderful work in a thread about harsh digital. He really deserves one with restoration and magic in the thread title...
|
|
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
|
Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 8, 2019 19:26:56 GMT 10
Interesting rip. If I am honest, I am not "kind". I hope that I am not stepping on anyones toes... This has all of the characteristics of a mid 70s pop production. Made to sell on the radio. I only have listened to it on my office system. I have the standard, original (non DBX)LP. I'll have to listen to it next week as I am playing trumpet this weekend. The rip is not distortion free. It seems compressed with not so much depth and detail. There is some "gurgle" in the solo voice Every cymbal crash or heavy bass drum kick implodes - as if they have not been decoded. There seems to be some wow and flutter The electric bass seems compressed The 12 string guitar is unnaturally bright and over articulate in "Even in the Quietest Moments" The voice is at one dynamic level throughout The sense of pitch is not good The harmonics do not seem to be attached to the fundementals. From 100 to 500 Hz lacks depth power and presence - kind of like a Koetsu cartridge hooked up to a Denon preamp. It has the dynamic range of an AM broadcast. This is stuff that still sounds good in the car with a high level of ambient noise but fails on discriminating systems. Maybe the ripper does not have a DBX decoder (my hunch!)?I have heard playback systems with all of these problems. Mismatch in cartridge/arm resonance. Mismatch in the loading of the cartridge. Low bandwidth RIAA corrector. Very common. Johns efforts are far more gratifying! I hope that he would be able to offer a properly decoded version sometime. This is music worth buying well produced! Hi Robin I was curious as to how it compared with the normal LP. I found that Johns' initial CD conversion sounded worse than this one, and was quite closed in. I also posted a link to a YouTube video Actually the ripper had some pretty good gear and appeared to be meticulous, so it doesn't say too much for the original DBX LP.
QUOTE : Even in the Quietest Moments... is the fifth album by progressive rock band Supertramp, released in April 1977. The album was recorded mainly at Caribou Ranch Studios in Colorado with overdubs, vocals and mixing completed at The Record Plant in Los Angeles and was Supertramp's first album to use engineer Peter Henderson, with whom the band would work for the rest of Roger Hodgson's tenure. The album reached #16 on the Billboard Pop Albums Charts in 1977 and within a few months of release became Supertramp's first Gold (500,000 copies or more) selling album in the US thanks to "Give a Little Bit" being a US Top 20 single and reaching number 29 on the UK Singles chart. While "Give a Little Bit" was the big hit, both "Fool's Overture" and "Even in the Quietest Moments (song)" got a fair amount of FM album-rock play. The 1997 and 2002 A&M Records CD reissues were mastered from the original master tapes by Greg Calbi and Jay Messina at Sterling Sound, New York, in 1997 and 2002. The reissues were supervised by Bill Levenson with art direction by Vartan and design by Mike Diehl, with production coordination by Beth Stempel. Both the 1997 and 2002 remasters are heavily criticized by audiophiles who claim they were mastered too loud as part of the "loudness war" mastering trend. Also the song "Loverboy" has been edited and is missing a couple of bars. Track Listing All songs written by Rick Davies and Roger Hodgson, lead vocals by Hodgson unless otherwise stated. Side One 1. "Give a Little Bit" – 4:13 2. "Lover Boy" – 6:52 Lead vocals: Rick Davies 3. "Even in the Quietest Moments" – 6:30 4. "Downstream" – 4:04 Lead vocals: Rick Davies Side Two 1. "Babaji" – 4:51 2. "From Now On" – 6:21 Lead vocals: Rick Davies 3. "Fool's Overture" – 10:52 Recorded: November 1976 - January 1977 at Caribou Ranch, Nederland, CO and Record Plant Studios, Los Angeles Professional reviews * Allmusic 4.5/5 stars link Vinyl Ripping Log Nitty Gritty RCM 1.5 Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable with KAB Fluid Damping and KAB record grip Ortofon 2M Black cartridge Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II Preamp dbx II Model 224 encoder/decoder NR Tascam US-144 external USB 2.0 Audiointerface Monster Cable interconnects Bias Peak LE 6 recording software iZotope RX Advanced 1.21 for Redbook conversion xACT 1.71 for Redbook SBE correction RCM>TT > Ortofon 2M Blk> Tube Box preamp> dbx II decoder > ADC> Mac Pro Dual Xeon> Peak LE @ 24/96 > analyze (no clipping, no DC Bias offset, each side normalized to -0.3 dB) > split into individual Tracks > Click Repair 3.02 used in Manual Mode, 30 Rev, Pitch Protection, X2 > FLAC encoded Level 8 with XLD Version 20100123 (115.4) All de-clicking software used in full manual mode to preserve musical transients. No music was harmed in the making of this vinyl rip. No silence been removed, please burn gapless to match original track layout.
|
|
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
|
Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 8, 2019 20:33:28 GMT 10
|
|
|
Post by johndyson on Dec 9, 2019 0:54:31 GMT 10
Wanted to chime in -- the fnal (after a lot of consideration) version of 'Even in the Quietest Momeents' as decoded from a feral DolbyA CD is at this location: EDIT: I made an erroneous edit -- this is indeed the final, correct version. I had done a real-time decode with the wrong parameters, but then checked to find that the original paramters as in the current version are correct... This is tricky, detailed stuff -- best not messed with too much!!!
(I can make a copy of the original feral material or even produce a true DolbyA copy, if interested.)
The decoding was done with minmal modiciation and manipulation (I dont believe in making changes from artist's intent.) The difficult part is to find the 'artists' intent, and I guess that interpretations will vary. Give these a try -- I worked hard to clean-up the vocals without doing anything 'special', 'dynamic' or manipulating the spectrum. THe material extends nicely to 20kHz (sorry it doesn't go further, but you know about the 22kHz bandwidth limit on CDs.) Wish I had a real master tape... John
|
|
|
Post by johndyson on Dec 9, 2019 7:59:27 GMT 10
Wow -- I had been decoding 'Breakfast in America' -- got a really good one. However, I heard a perfectly clean example of modulation distortion early in the title song. It lit up like a christmas tree -- I thought, well we can keep the distortion, or use a trick that I had been thinking about implementing. Richard Hess asked me if we could minimize modulation distortion created by the encoding process, I and told him we could, but DolbyA encoding is usually pretty clean. Well -- I have learned that I was wrong about DolbyA encoding being clean. I instituted the anti-modulation distortion mechanism for the encoding side. Basically, the decoder understands what the DolbyA encoding actually does, and then undoes that damage similar to part of what the DHNRDS does to its own signal. The addition only does a portion of the modulation distortion removal, but it did something amazing!!!!
First, it mitigated the modulation distortion in the 'Breakfast' recording, but it also did wonders on some tests on ABBA, and on one of Richards' master tapes!!! I think that 'Breakfast' just spurred me on to fix another DolbyA problem!!! The damage in 'Breakfast' was actually done by the encoding process. and basically the DHNRDS knows how to demodulate the signal and remove the distortion... I knew that it could be done, but I had considered it to be a risk, plus EVERYTHING - I MEAN EVERYTHING else must be correct, or the distortion removal would actually make it worse.
Since the DHNRDS DA is perfect (I mean -- better than a DolbyA can decode -- I'll explain), I could trust the DHNRDS calculations and then back-out the distortion... It really does work!!!
* About the DHNRDS being better than DolbyA. It isn't because R Dolby wasn't a bigger genius than I am -- it is because the feedback design for decoding is APPROXIMATE, while the DHNRDS explictly calculates the gains without error. The feedback loop scheme is susceptable to problems with delays in the loop and all kinds of other such things. SO I AM NOT SHOWING AN EXCESSIVE EGO, it is a simple fact because of the feedforward architecture doing all of the feedback calculations mathematically correct...
In about 1 day, Breakfast will be coming out. I have MUCHO testing to do. This change is significant, and has major impact to the DHNRDS DA.
John
|
|
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
|
Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 9, 2019 10:41:09 GMT 10
Wanted to chime in -- the fnal (after a lot of consideration) version of 'Even in the Quietest Momeents' as decoded from a feral DolbyA CD is at this location: EDIT: I made an erroneous edit -- this is indeed the final, correct version. I had done a real-time decode with the wrong parameters, but then checked to find that the original paramters as in the current version are correct... This is tricky, detailed stuff -- best not messed with too much!!!
(I can make a copy of the original feral material or even produce a true DolbyA copy, if interested.)
The decoding was done with minmal modiciation and manipulation (I dont believe in making changes from artist's intent.) The difficult part is to find the 'artists' intent, and I guess that interpretations will vary. Give these a try -- I worked hard to clean-up the vocals without doing anything 'special', 'dynamic' or manipulating the spectrum. THe material extends nicely to 20kHz (sorry it doesn't go further, but you know about the 22kHz bandwidth limit on CDs.) Wish I had a real master tape... John Hi John. This is vastly superior to your previous version. It's a bit like looking into the sun without sunglasses, but that's the way it appears to have been meant back then, What on earth were the Recording Engineers thinking ? Just track 1 was enough for me though , as this album doesn't come remotely close to the quality of Crime of the Century. Probably a different Mastering Engineer for that one ? Someone we both know from the Blue Mountains a little west of Sydney should enjoy this one with his Laptop and it's tiny speakers .
Kind Regards Alex
|
|
|
Post by johndyson on Dec 9, 2019 13:29:59 GMT 10
I have a new decoding of Breakfast in America that will BLOW AWAY any preconceptions that it was a poorer quality recording. This comes from a new DHNRDS version -- I even demoed Richard (who desn't like feral stuff all that much.) If you heard the decode using the previous version of DHNRDS (this is experimental) vs this, you'd think that the previous was 'foggy'. Imagine that a true DolbyA is even worse!!! i just improved the DA decoder on a lark. In fact, did the improvement because of an explict case of modulatoin distortion in the Breakfast in America decoding result. Then, listening to the feral-DolbyA source, found the same distortion. A few years ago, Richard asked me about removing the modulation distortion from the DolbyA encoding process... Guess what? Got rid of the modulation distortion from the DolbyA. (Well, didn't totally cancel it, because the instantaneous state of the original DolbyA needs to be known, and the DHNRDS can only estimate it.) However, it did partially cancel the original modulation distortion. The fog is not just decreased but is obliterated. I cannot wait to hear Crime and Quiet!!! ABBA is fantabulously clean!!! Bottom line: Breakfast in America is really, really clean sounding now. This is a religious experience, and I very seldom listen to recordings all the way through -- I COULDN"T STOP LISTENING. Richard doesn't like the feral stuff much, and I even sent him the comparison.... Get ready to sit through all of the songs... It is amazing, and I am not exaggerating. Remember, this is pure, from the copy that I have. I don't play with recordings, don't compress them or make modifications. Every time I modify a recording, someone complains. I quit modifying them a LONG time ago... Get ready -- and really ENJOY: The IMPOSSIBLE Breakfast in America!!! www.dropbox.com/sh/powricf3aiuj6p6/AAAKU0BkEjzLb4yxa0FGpqe6a?dl=0John
|
|
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
|
Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 9, 2019 14:30:02 GMT 10
I have a new decoding of Breakfast in America that will BLOW AWAY any preconceptions that it was a poorer quality recording. This comes from a new DHNRDS version -- I even demoed Richard (who desn't like feral stuff all that much.) If you heard the decode using the previous version of DHNRDS (this is experimental) vs this, you'd think that the previous was 'foggy'. Imagine that a true DolbyA is even worse!!! i just improved the DA decoder on a lark. In fact, did the improvement because of an explict case of modulatoin distortion in the Breakfast in America decoding result. Then, listening to the feral-DolbyA source, found the same distortion. A few years ago, Richard asked me about removing the modulation distortion from the DolbyA encoding process... Guess what? Got rid of the modulation distortion from the DolbyA. (Well, didn't totally cancel it, because the instantaneous state of the original DolbyA needs to be known, and the DHNRDS can only estimate it.) However, it did partially cancel the original modulation distortion. The fog is not just decreased but is obliterated. I cannot wait to hear Crime and Quiet!!! ABBA is fantabulously clean!!! Bottom line: Breakfast in America is really, really clean sounding now. This is a religious experience, and I very seldom listen to recordings all the way through -- I COULDN"T STOP LISTENING. Richard doesn't like the feral stuff much, and I even sent him the comparison.... Get ready to sit through all of the songs... It is amazing, and I am not exaggerating. Remember, this is pure, from the copy that I have. I don't play with recordings, don't compress them or make modifications. Every time I modify a recording, someone complains. I quit modifying them a LONG time ago... Get ready -- and really ENJOY: The IMPOSSIBLE Breakfast in America!!! www.dropbox.com/sh/powricf3aiuj6p6/AAAKU0BkEjzLb4yxa0FGpqe6a?dl=0John Hi John At an initial listen, The Logical Song is a little further improved from the"R" version of around 19/11 especially from about 1.35 remaining. Kind Regards Alex
|
|
|
Post by ROWUK on Dec 9, 2019 16:09:28 GMT 10
Hmmm, the list of record playing equipment is not bad - but assuming that he used it, it does not say much about his ears. I would have been ashamed to publish this rip of “even in the quietest moments” without extensive explanations that the bad sound was the LP. Maybe he didn’t hear it? Maybe the VTA of the cartridge is way off? It sounds more like he ENCODED with dbx II instead of decoding. I don’t have a dbx decoder - but have some tapes (personal recordings to Cassette tape where the original recorder is now dead) that I have tried to decode with Cubase and expander plugins. I gave up. I could not get them to track and there seems to be no plugin available for dbx. Interesting rip. If I am honest, I am not "kind". I hope that I am not stepping on anyones toes... This has all of the characteristics of a mid 70s pop production. Made to sell on the radio. I only have listened to it on my office system. I have the standard, original (non DBX)LP. I'll have to listen to it next week as I am playing trumpet this weekend. The rip is not distortion free. It seems compressed with not so much depth and detail. There is some "gurgle" in the solo voice Every cymbal crash or heavy bass drum kick implodes - as if they have not been decoded. There seems to be some wow and flutter The electric bass seems compressed The 12 string guitar is unnaturally bright and over articulate in "Even in the Quietest Moments" The voice is at one dynamic level throughout The sense of pitch is not good The harmonics do not seem to be attached to the fundementals. From 100 to 500 Hz lacks depth power and presence - kind of like a Koetsu cartridge hooked up to a Denon preamp. It has the dynamic range of an AM broadcast. This is stuff that still sounds good in the car with a high level of ambient noise but fails on discriminating systems. Maybe the ripper does not have a DBX decoder (my hunch!)?I have heard playback systems with all of these problems. Mismatch in cartridge/arm resonance. Mismatch in the loading of the cartridge. Low bandwidth RIAA corrector. Very common. Johns efforts are far more gratifying! I hope that he would be able to offer a properly decoded version sometime. This is music worth buying well produced! Hi Robin I was curious as to how it compared with the normal LP. I found that Johns' initial CD conversion sounded worse than this one, and was quite closed in. I also posted a link to a YouTube video Actually the ripper had some pretty good gear and appeared to be meticulous, so it doesn't say too much for the original DBX LP.
QUOTE : Even in the Quietest Moments... is the fifth album by progressive rock band Supertramp, released in April 1977. The album was recorded mainly at Caribou Ranch Studios in Colorado with overdubs, vocals and mixing completed at The Record Plant in Los Angeles and was Supertramp's first album to use engineer Peter Henderson, with whom the band would work for the rest of Roger Hodgson's tenure. The album reached #16 on the Billboard Pop Albums Charts in 1977 and within a few months of release became Supertramp's first Gold (500,000 copies or more) selling album in the US thanks to "Give a Little Bit" being a US Top 20 single and reaching number 29 on the UK Singles chart. While "Give a Little Bit" was the big hit, both "Fool's Overture" and "Even in the Quietest Moments (song)" got a fair amount of FM album-rock play. The 1997 and 2002 A&M Records CD reissues were mastered from the original master tapes by Greg Calbi and Jay Messina at Sterling Sound, New York, in 1997 and 2002. The reissues were supervised by Bill Levenson with art direction by Vartan and design by Mike Diehl, with production coordination by Beth Stempel. Both the 1997 and 2002 remasters are heavily criticized by audiophiles who claim they were mastered too loud as part of the "loudness war" mastering trend. Also the song "Loverboy" has been edited and is missing a couple of bars. Track Listing All songs written by Rick Davies and Roger Hodgson, lead vocals by Hodgson unless otherwise stated. Side One 1. "Give a Little Bit" – 4:13 2. "Lover Boy" – 6:52 Lead vocals: Rick Davies 3. "Even in the Quietest Moments" – 6:30 4. "Downstream" – 4:04 Lead vocals: Rick Davies Side Two 1. "Babaji" – 4:51 2. "From Now On" – 6:21 Lead vocals: Rick Davies 3. "Fool's Overture" – 10:52 Recorded: November 1976 - January 1977 at Caribou Ranch, Nederland, CO and Record Plant Studios, Los Angeles Professional reviews * Allmusic 4.5/5 stars link Vinyl Ripping Log Nitty Gritty RCM 1.5 Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable with KAB Fluid Damping and KAB record grip Ortofon 2M Black cartridge Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II Preamp dbx II Model 224 encoder/decoder NR Tascam US-144 external USB 2.0 Audiointerface Monster Cable interconnects Bias Peak LE 6 recording software iZotope RX Advanced 1.21 for Redbook conversion xACT 1.71 for Redbook SBE correction RCM>TT > Ortofon 2M Blk> Tube Box preamp> dbx II decoder > ADC> Mac Pro Dual Xeon> Peak LE @ 24/96 > analyze (no clipping, no DC Bias offset, each side normalized to -0.3 dB) > split into individual Tracks > Click Repair 3.02 used in Manual Mode, 30 Rev, Pitch Protection, X2 > FLAC encoded Level 8 with XLD Version 20100123 (115.4) All de-clicking software used in full manual mode to preserve musical transients. No music was harmed in the making of this vinyl rip. No silence been removed, please burn gapless to match original track layout.
|
|
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
|
Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 9, 2019 16:17:00 GMT 10
Hmmm, the list of record playing equipment is not bad - but assuming that he used it, it does not say much about his ears. I would have been ashamed to publish this rip of “even in the quietest moments” without extensive explanations that the bad sound was the LP. Maybe he didn’t hear it? Maybe the VTA of the cartridge is way off? It sounds more like he ENCODED with dbx II instead of decoding. I don’t have a dbx decoder - but have some tapes (personal recordings to Cassette tape where the original recorder is now dead) that I have tried to decode with Cubase and expander plugins. I gave up. I could not get them to track and there seems to be no plugin available for dbx. Hi Robin I was curious as to how it compared with the normal LP. I found that Johns' initial CD conversion sounded worse than this one, and was quite closed in. I also posted a link to a YouTube video Actually the ripper had some pretty good gear and appeared to be meticulous, so it doesn't say too much for the original DBX LP.
QUOTE : Even in the Quietest Moments... is the fifth album by progressive rock band Supertramp, released in April 1977. The album was recorded mainly at Caribou Ranch Studios in Colorado with overdubs, vocals and mixing completed at The Record Plant in Los Angeles and was Supertramp's first album to use engineer Peter Henderson, with whom the band would work for the rest of Roger Hodgson's tenure. The album reached #16 on the Billboard Pop Albums Charts in 1977 and within a few months of release became Supertramp's first Gold (500,000 copies or more) selling album in the US thanks to "Give a Little Bit" being a US Top 20 single and reaching number 29 on the UK Singles chart. While "Give a Little Bit" was the big hit, both "Fool's Overture" and "Even in the Quietest Moments (song)" got a fair amount of FM album-rock play. The 1997 and 2002 A&M Records CD reissues were mastered from the original master tapes by Greg Calbi and Jay Messina at Sterling Sound, New York, in 1997 and 2002. The reissues were supervised by Bill Levenson with art direction by Vartan and design by Mike Diehl, with production coordination by Beth Stempel. Both the 1997 and 2002 remasters are heavily criticized by audiophiles who claim they were mastered too loud as part of the "loudness war" mastering trend. Also the song "Loverboy" has been edited and is missing a couple of bars. Track Listing All songs written by Rick Davies and Roger Hodgson, lead vocals by Hodgson unless otherwise stated. Side One 1. "Give a Little Bit" – 4:13 2. "Lover Boy" – 6:52 Lead vocals: Rick Davies 3. "Even in the Quietest Moments" – 6:30 4. "Downstream" – 4:04 Lead vocals: Rick Davies Side Two 1. "Babaji" – 4:51 2. "From Now On" – 6:21 Lead vocals: Rick Davies 3. "Fool's Overture" – 10:52 Recorded: November 1976 - January 1977 at Caribou Ranch, Nederland, CO and Record Plant Studios, Los Angeles Professional reviews * Allmusic 4.5/5 stars link Vinyl Ripping Log Nitty Gritty RCM 1.5 Technics SL-1200MK2 Turntable with KAB Fluid Damping and KAB record grip Ortofon 2M Black cartridge Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II Preamp dbx II Model 224 encoder/decoder NR Tascam US-144 external USB 2.0 Audiointerface Monster Cable interconnects Bias Peak LE 6 recording software iZotope RX Advanced 1.21 for Redbook conversion xACT 1.71 for Redbook SBE correction RCM>TT > Ortofon 2M Blk> Tube Box preamp> dbx II decoder > ADC> Mac Pro Dual Xeon> Peak LE @ 24/96 > analyze (no clipping, no DC Bias offset, each side normalized to -0.3 dB) > split into individual Tracks > Click Repair 3.02 used in Manual Mode, 30 Rev, Pitch Protection, X2 > FLAC encoded Level 8 with XLD Version 20100123 (115.4) All de-clicking software used in full manual mode to preserve musical transients. No music was harmed in the making of this vinyl rip. No silence been removed, please burn gapless to match original track layout.
|
|
sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
|
Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 9, 2019 16:30:59 GMT 10
Hi Robin
I do not believe this was the case about incorrect use of the DBX. Even John's most recent effort is still extremely bright, and appears to be as a result of extremely poor mastering, or a major stuff up at a later stage, perhaps even to suit AM radio back then. I didn't even bother listening to the whole album, and I certainly won't be saving any version available for further listening , whether RBCD, .mp3 or Vinyl versions. OTOH, Crime of the Century is very good indeed, and I have saved it for further listening.
Kind Regards Alex
P.S. Perhaps this annoying voice sibilance is the reason I never became a Supertramp fan ?
|
|
|
Post by cj66 on Dec 9, 2019 22:47:09 GMT 10
I've just had a decent listen to the new Breakfast In America. The real stand out track for this post is Take The Long Way Home, in this new one the first minute of the track tells all you need to know, the space and clarity given to the instruments is impressive, with a little extra bite but not harsh and has extra feeling of tunefullness. I love the weight and resonance on the early piano part and then the harmonica comes ripping in and is big and airy too. My only question is for the hi-hat, I'm assuming an artifact of the recording (as the drums sound typical studio style, weighty and thick due to, quite likely, double skin heads (sometimes oil filled) and low tuning, the hats sound more like a sample than acoustically played. Is that something that can be drawn up in the mix or is it actually recorded like that and irretrievable?
A tiny nit pick in an otherwise great sounding work and pretty much the only place in any track where it is actually noticeable.
I share Alex's view of ...Quieter Moments, musically not much there for me.
|
|
|
Post by ROWUK on Dec 10, 2019 3:22:59 GMT 10
It isn't the bright that bothers me (that is not necessarily an amusical characteristic to me), it is the different levels of compression below and over 1KHz. That is a standard artifact of dbx recordings not being decoded. Hi Robin
I do not believe this was the case about incorrect use of the DBX. Even John's most recent effort is still extremely bright, and appears to be as a result of extremely poor mastering, or a major stuff up at a later stage, perhaps even to suit AM radio back then. I didn't even bother listening to the whole album, and I certainly won't be saving any version available for further listening , whether RBCD, .mp3 or Vinyl versions. OTOH, Crime of the Century is very good indeed, and I have saved it for further listening.
Kind Regards Alex
P.S. Perhaps this annoying voice sibilance is the reason I never became a Supertramp fan ?
|
|
|
Post by johndyson on Dec 10, 2019 3:26:19 GMT 10
I've just had a decent listen to the new Breakfast In America. The real stand out track for this post is Take The Long Way Home, in this new one the first minute of the track tells all you need to know, the space and clarity given to the instruments is impressive, with a little extra bite but not harsh and has extra feeling of tunefullness. I love the weight and resonance on the early piano part and then the harmonica comes ripping in and is big and airy too. My only question is for the hi-hat, I'm assuming an artifact of the recording (as the drums sound typical studio style, weighty and thick due to, quite likely, double skin heads (sometimes oil filled) and low tuning, the hats sound more like a sample than acoustically played. Is that something that can be drawn up in the mix or is it actually recorded like that and irretrievable?
A tiny nit pick in an otherwise great sounding work and pretty much the only place in any track where it is actually noticeable.
I share Alex's view of ...Quieter Moments, musically not much there for me. Very frustratingly -- I found another major step improvement in the DHNRDS DA last night (imagine how Richard felt when I was developing it) -- and the new version actually embarasses the version that just decoded Breakfast yesterday. Instead of being conservative on the corrective filtering, I turned it up to '11'. Lots of testing, because this filtering s really strange how it works. Right now, decoding a new 'Crime', id suspect that the improvement in the ambiance and clarity will be noticeable. (Clarity is not the same as sharpness -- and Crime is plenty sharp :-)). The parameters on the new decode are the same -- the improvement in clarity is th edecoder. The new 'crime' should be uploaded some time today.
Wow -- I am embarassed by the admittedly good 'Breakfast', because the new decodes are coming out better also. It will take a while to get everything ready. Will share ASAP.
I agree about 'Quiet'. I really hated the vocal 'enhancement' that was even on the DolbyA copy as EQed from tape (most likely), and there is nothing that I could do to fix it.
My processing is limited to 'giving a picture of the DolbyA'. I can CORRECT errors, but not allowed to be creative. The amount of creativness must be limited to what is necessary to 'correct'. It is NOT valid for me to use my compressor or expander on any material that I am demoing as being decoded and representation of the feral DolbyA. MASTERING IS DIFFICULT, and a special art. I don't do mastering, I only decode and correct.
I had to necessarily be limited in the changes to 'Quiet', even though there might be some improvements when using the new decoder. Mastering is an expertise that I do NOT have!!! So, if a goal is outside of decoding, then I am stuck.
There is more *interesting* stuff forthcoming!!!
John
|
|