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Post by ROWUK on Nov 27, 2019 17:56:51 GMT 10
The LR vocals change timbre depending on the volume. That could be a sign of some artifacts in decompression. Soft vocals sound veiled, as it gets louder they get more natural.
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Post by johndyson on Nov 28, 2019 1:22:14 GMT 10
I haven't even read any recent feedback -- I DEEPLY apologize for the recent decoding attempts. The attempts might/might-not sound good -- but that iasn't good enough!!!
I have been having a hellish time making them sound the way that I want. In some ways they are good, but not exactly where I want them. I FINALLY got the pianos sounding right so that they don't wobble. Most other versions of these disks are either 1) not decoded, 2) wobble...
This makes me feel that there is something really wrong even when they try to properly master the *digital* versions of stuff.
I am being much more cereful this time. Like Alex warns me -- don't hurry just to get it out. Do it correctly!!! He is right.
When I do software, I can push myself and get it done and make it perfect, but my hearing isn't like that. The hearing fails because of some mysterious mental issue -- and then I produce something that doesn't quite work right. (If only I knew the EQ that was used to hide the DolbyA -- would make it much easier for me!!!)
Again, I deeply apologize, and I am not going to post anything again until Alex clears it for me.
John
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Post by ROWUK on Nov 28, 2019 4:23:38 GMT 10
John, I would like to thank you for all of the effort that you are putting into this project. I know from experience what reverse engineering means and can imagine the frustration or joy of 2 steps forward one back. You have some AMAZING highlights and I certainly hope that this venture will turn out "profitable".
I wish you a wonderful first weekend in Adventtide.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Nov 30, 2019 14:32:11 GMT 10
I haven't even read any recent feedback -- I DEEPLY apologize for the recent decoding attempts. The attempts might/might-not sound good -- but that iasn't good enough!!! I have been having a hellish time making them sound the way that I want. In some ways they are good, but not exactly where I want them. I FINALLY got the pianos sounding right so that they don't wobble. Most other versions of these disks are either 1) not decoded, 2) wobble... This makes me feel that there is something really wrong even when they try to properly master the *digital* versions of stuff. I am being much more cereful this time. Like Alex warns me -- don't hurry just to get it out. Do it correctly!!! He is right. When I do software, I can push myself and get it done and make it perfect, but my hearing isn't like that. The hearing fails because of some mysterious mental issue -- and then I produce something that doesn't quite work right. (If only I knew the EQ that was used to hide the DolbyA -- would make it much easier for me!!!) Again, I deeply apologize, and I am not going to post anything again until Alex clears it for me. John 3 hours ago, John Dyson said in A.S. Forum and to me in private :
" Sorry -- had some problems -- all fixed, and very nice... Just got 1971 done onto the demo site, and now should be uploading 1972 in a few minutes, and 1973 in about 1/2 Hr.
Very nice doesn't even come close to describing John's just completed test of a few corrected tracks from Supertramp.
They absolutely put to shame most Hi Res recordings despite being sourced from 16/44.1 .
I was never really a Supertramp fan, but this is one album that I am really looking forward to hearing in it's entirety.
Alex
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 1, 2019 15:57:42 GMT 10
This morning John Dyson sent me his newly corrected version of the Supertramp-Crime of the Century album. It is absolutely stunning, and despite it's origin being from CD, it sounds up there with the very best High Resolution recordings .Track 1-School for example, has a huge dynamic range and an incredible soundstage. If any member would like to hear a sample track, please send me a P.M.
Alex
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Post by ROWUK on Dec 2, 2019 1:33:30 GMT 10
I thought that the last version was essentially perfect...
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Post by cj66 on Dec 2, 2019 2:21:12 GMT 10
Robin, Alex and John received my thoughts via email.
Basically it's more perfecter-est now.....innit!
Seriously, John has managed to make the previously thought of as perfect version, better still.
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Post by johndyson on Dec 3, 2019 5:52:47 GMT 10
Thanks everyone for the feedback. After all of this being done, I realized that all along (the last couple of months) some of the most aggressive part of the distortion cancellation wasn't fully enabled. Leaving part of the distortion cancellation maintains some sound qualities closer to a true DolbyA. When I just looked at the source code yesterday, I realized that section was disabled!!!
I re-enabled it, and re-decoded '01-School' on 'Crime'. This is not the 'normal' version, but should have EXACTLY the same freq response/etc, but has a different, more delicate sound detail... The hard edges on the vocals now have detail in them. A LOT of distortion is removed by this mode. (It is optional on the decoder, but IS default on the version of the DHNRDS DA that I am releasing.)
Here is the 'different' 01-School from 'Crime of the Century' -- there is NO attempt to sound like the vinyl, but has the same frequency response.
Here is the 'normal' (sounds more similar to vinyl) one just in case you don't have it:
Have fun!!! (I didn't get an Alex review on this, because this is something that is more 'informal'.)
John
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Post by johndyson on Dec 3, 2019 9:53:28 GMT 10
Thanks everyone for the feedback. After all of this being done, I realized that all along (the last couple of months) some of the most aggressive part of the distortion cancellation wasn't fully enabled. Leaving part of the distortion cancellation maintains some sound qualities closer to a true DolbyA. When I just looked at the source code yesterday, I realized that section was disabled!!!
I re-enabled it, and re-decoded '01-School' on 'Crime'. This is not the 'normal' version, but should have EXACTLY the same freq response/etc, but has a different, more delicate sound detail... The hard edges on the vocals now have detail in them. A LOT of distortion is removed by this mode. (It is optional on the decoder, but IS default on the version of the DHNRDS DA that I am releasing.)
Here is the 'different' 01-School from 'Crime of the Century' -- there is NO attempt to sound like the vinyl, but has the same frequency response.
Here is the 'normal' (sounds more similar to vinyl) one just in case you don't have it:
Have fun!!! (I didn't get an Alex review on this, because this is something that is more 'informal'.)
John
I apologize, but the 'normal' version was a copy of the same 'enhanced/low distortion version'. I make lots of mistakes, and that is why the decoding work (and work on the decoder) takes sooo long. I know what to do, but have problems keeping things straight. I regret any confusion, but the following is the 'normal' version of 'school' that was reviewed pretty well (comparing with the lower distortion version in previous post.) LOWER DISTORTION DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN BETTER, and that is one reason why the 'low distortion' processing mode can be disabled...
Thanks -- and I am currently working on verifying the new version of the decoder -- then both 'Quiet' and 'Breakfast' are on the table. The file trees are all ready, just need to do the proper decode. So far, the prelim results for 'Quiet' are pretty good -- but the acid test are you guys (and possibly gals) with good hearing!!! When I am ready with 'final' results -- so they are plausibly correct & ideal, then feedback on changes will be greatly appreciated. I share results with those who help, and I promise that there is nothing commercial being done here -- this is for the love of the music.
John
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 3, 2019 10:26:34 GMT 10
Hi John I find the new EQ version to sound bland and as if his voice has been homogenised too. It reminded me of a milk shake years ago in a farm where you could watch the milking taking place, using their fresh milk, compared with the same flavour milkshake in a Milkbar using homogenised milk. Much of the specialness was no longer there .
Kind Regards Alex
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Post by johndyson on Dec 3, 2019 14:09:55 GMT 10
Hi John I find the new EQ version to sound bland and as if his voice has been homogenised too. It reminded me of a milk shake years ago in a farm where you could watch the milking taking place, using their fresh milk, compared with the same flavour milkshake in a Milkbar using homogenised milk. Much of the specialness was no longer there . Kind Regards Alex I can understand what you are saying... That nice, hard edge comes from pushing the decoder way way hard -- luckily the DHNRDS DA sounds similar to the true DolbyA. Now, when you are talking about the EQ version, do you really mean the more normal EQed version (similar parameters to other recordings) or do you mean the anti-distortion mode decode version. (there are two very different variations...) The anti-distortion version shouldn't really be bland, but the harsh part of sharpness should be somewhat suppressed. The detail obscured by the hard edge is revealed with the anti-distortion stuff fully functioning. The different EQed version should be much more bland though (4.5dB more bland at 6kHz and 10.5dB more bland at 9kHz.)
I have been SOOOO surprised about how close the DHNRDS DA acts similar to a true DolbyA. I have a recording: Dreamworld, from ABBA that has been encoded 3 times sequentially. If the DHNRDS DA didn't work very similarly to a true DolbyA, the results would be terrible -- that is, decoding the material 3 times all in a row, without encoding in between. Of course, the undecoded 3-times encoded Dreamworld sounds bad -- but that is what the ABBAphiles have been listening to!!! But, the DHNRDS DA -- if calibration is carefully set for each step of decoding (there is about a 0.05dB error between input and output on the DHNRDS DA), the resulting Dreamworld recording actually doesn't sound worse than a normal ABBA recording as normally sold.
I am SOOO relieved that the tracking is so good. Richard and I spent a few weeks developing the gain curves, they are very precise. Each band acts just a little differently -- R Dolby actually had slighlty different gains in/out of each compressor -- and if they do not match very close, the result sounds like a kind of distortion.
The DHNRDS is incredibly precise. Unfortunately, it doens't look like it is going to be used much except maybe in research situations -- it is soo sad that so much material is out there and not properly decoded. I cannot complain about the mastering, but instead it seems like the distributors aren't taking the DolbyA encoding/decoding seriously...
FRUSTRATING!!!
John
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 3, 2019 14:15:28 GMT 10
Hi John I was referring to this version 01-School-differentEQ
Kind Regards Alex
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Post by johndyson on Dec 3, 2019 14:27:57 GMT 10
Hi John I was referring to this version 01-School-differentEQ Kind Regards Alex Yes -- fully understand -- it might lose the special sound that the album has. Even before I got the feedback from you true audio lovers (I am just a dabbler), I knew that the original disk was very intense -- back 30yrs ago when I actually had the vinyl, I really liked it. Nowadays, I cannot really just sit back and enjoy. The damrned decoder takes all of my time!!! John
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Dec 8, 2019 8:27:36 GMT 10
Recently John started to investigate the poor quality CD release of Supertramp-Even in the Quietest Moments. When searching ,I found a 24/96 rip from a DBX encoded Vinyl LP. I would be interested to see comments from members about this particular album, regarding whether it is even close to the original normal Vinyl version. Please PM me for a Download link of this album for comparison purposes. Kind Regards Alex
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Post by ROWUK on Dec 8, 2019 10:21:16 GMT 10
Interesting rip. If I am honest, I am not "kind". I hope that I am not stepping on anyones toes... This has all of the characteristics of a mid 70s pop production. Made to sell on the radio. I only have listened to it on my office system. I have the standard, original (non DBX)LP. I'll have to listen to it next week as I am playing trumpet this weekend.
The rip is not distortion free. It seems compressed with not so much depth and detail. There is some "gurgle" in the solo voice Every cymbal crash or heavy bass drum kick implodes - as if they have not been decoded. There seems to be some wow and flutter The electric bass seems compressed The 12 string guitar is unnaturally bright and over articulate in "Even in the Quietest Moments" The voice is at one dynamic level throughout The sense of pitch is not good The harmonics do not seem to be attached to the fundementals. From 100 to 500 Hz lacks depth power and presence - kind of like a Koetsu cartridge hooked up to a Denon preamp. It has the dynamic range of an AM broadcast. This is stuff that still sounds good in the car with a high level of ambient noise but fails on discriminating systems. Maybe the ripper does not have a DBX decoder (my hunch!)?
I have heard playback systems with all of these problems. Mismatch in cartridge/arm resonance. Mismatch in the loading of the cartridge. Low bandwidth RIAA corrector. Very common.
Johns efforts are far more gratifying! I hope that he would be able to offer a properly decoded version sometime. This is music worth buying well produced!
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