Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 20:08:49 GMT 10
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
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Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Sept 14, 2019 22:33:37 GMT 10
Hi Scumbag (not)
Yes, it does look like a colour photo when you squint. Our eyes and ears are both easily fooled, but even so, are more reliable than measurements in many cases .
Kind Regards Alex
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STC
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Post by STC on Sept 14, 2019 22:37:55 GMT 10
No difference to me.
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Post by ROWUK on Sept 14, 2019 23:26:40 GMT 10
Not perception, rather deception!
… ont pû tromper quelques hommes, ou les tromper tous dans certains lieux & en certains tems, mais non pas tous les hommes, dans tous les lieux & dans tous les siécles.
One can fool some men, or fool all men in some places and times, but one cannot fool all men in all places and ages. “Traité de la Vérité de la Religion Chrétienne” by Jacques Abbadie
A really cool thing that you posted!
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STC
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Post by STC on Sept 15, 2019 9:11:43 GMT 10
I think it is how you look at an object. For an example, the Batman logo always looks like a mouth with large teeth and I have to force myself to focus on the black for the bat shape to be perceived. The other one was autostereogram. It took me some training and now quickly spot the 3D image than my children.
As far as the OP is concerned, they all look a pale colored photograph no matter how I look at it.
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Sept 15, 2019 9:59:22 GMT 10
Theses colour "assimilation" illusions, as the author says shows how luminance takes precedence over chroma in visual perception.
The illusion works with one or two eyes ie it is not a stereoscopic effect
Here is a video by the same author Nature Neurosciencevolume 6, pages801–802 (2003) Large shifts in color appearance from patterned chromatic backgrounds Patrick Monnier & Steven K Shevell The perceived color of a light varies with the background on which it is seen. In the present study, patterned backgrounds composed of two different chromaticities caused larger shifts in perceived color than did a uniform background at either chromaticity within the pattern. Cortical receptive-field organization, but not optical factors or known retinal neurons, can account for the color shifts from patterned backgrounds. There are lots of similar illusions as the author points out, try the Munker Illusion or Prof Novick Professor of Engineering University of Texas at El Paso Colour Illusions.
Hi ST, I am surprised. Did you try squinting? Not perception, rather deception! … ont pû tromper quelques hommes, ou les tromper tous dans certains lieux & en certains tems, mais non pas tous les hommes, dans tous les lieux & dans tous les siécles. One can fool some men, or fool all men in some places and times, but one cannot fool all men in all places and ages. “Traité de la Vérité de la Religion Chrétienne” by Jacques AbbadieA really cool thing that you posted!Haha I often say the opposite, Not deception, perception ! Some in the audio world in particular seem to be obsessed with the 'trickery' of the mind's illusions as proof that only measurements of the audio signal matter. David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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STC
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Post by STC on Sept 15, 2019 10:57:29 GMT 10
David, yes I did try squinting. One eye, tilting and defocus but the colour in the image did not change. I also don’t perceive height with binaural recordings with headphones.
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Sept 15, 2019 12:36:55 GMT 10
David, yes I did try squinting. One eye, tilting and defocus but the colour in the image did not change. I also don’t perceive height with binaural recordings with headphones. So, just goes to show we all perceive things differently. One could argue you are less easily "fooled" (but I wouldn't characterize it that way)into seeing some illusions and it makes me wonder whether you may be less prone to hearing stereophonic illusions. Conversely, you may be more prone to benefit from gains with ambiophonics (if one accepts that it is a more accurate presentation of the cues). The corollary of this is that some people may be quite satisfied with Stereo and wonder what the fuss is about with ambiophonics. This is all just conjecture on my part ST but I have often supposed that our different perception of the auditory stimulus might likely explain why some hear differences in audio and others do not (notwithsatnding and putting aside issues of blind testing, training and experience) David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Sept 15, 2019 13:01:46 GMT 10
David, yes I did try squinting. One eye, tilting and defocus but the colour in the image did not change. I also don’t perceive height with binaural recordings with headphones. So, just goes to show we all perceive things differently. One could argue you are less easily "fooled" (but I wouldn't characterize it that way)into seeing some illusions and it makes me wonder whether you may be less prone to hearing stereophonic illusions. Conversely, you may be more prone to benefit from gains with ambiophonics (if one accepts that it is a more accurate presentation of the cues). The corollary of this is that some people may be quite satisfied with Stereo and wonder what the fuss is about with ambiophonics. This is all just conjecture on my part ST but I have often supposed that our different perception of the auditory stimulus might likely explain why some hear differences in audio and others do not (notwithsatnding and putting aside issues of blind testing, training and experience) David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong +1
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STC
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Post by STC on Sept 15, 2019 13:15:33 GMT 10
David, yes I did try squinting. One eye, tilting and defocus but the colour in the image did not change. I also don’t perceive height with binaural recordings with headphones. So, just goes to show we all perceive things differently. One could argue you are less easily "fooled" (but I wouldn't characterize it that way)into seeing some illusions and it makes me wonder whether you may be less prone to hearing stereophonic illusions. Conversely, you may be more prone to benefit from gains with ambiophonics (if one accepts that it is a more accurate presentation of the cues). The corollary of this is that some people may be quite satisfied with Stereo and wonder what the fuss is about with ambiophonics. This is all just conjecture on my part ST but I have often supposed that our different perception of the auditory stimulus might likely explain why some hear differences in audio and others do not (notwithsatnding and putting aside issues of blind testing, training and experience) David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong I do not perceive things like depth and width as what most audiophiles describe. During my sterephonics era, I could reproduce all the effect in the Amused to Death but I could never perceive the sound as described by others in my own system. I for one, could never perceive soundstage beyond the walls of my room despite all the visitors would describe the dog barking in AMTD seemed to be coming from my neighbors backyard. I am also sensitive to the so called depth perception and easily could tell spot mic’ed instruments in a symphony recordings. IMO, just because and instrument contains more reverbs they automatically assign a depth to it while I need two reference with the exact ambiance of the room to accurately tell which is further back. Some made fun about this. I really thought I may be defective in some way until one day during an audiophile meet at a friend’s place where a whip sound in of the TAS recording was described to be coming from various direction by others. None of us agreed on the exact location. That prompted me to conduct an experiment there where I dropped a coin with the lights turned off and asked each participation to guess where the coin was. The conclusion was no one could accurately guess the coin as I did. But this also led to me to look at their lifestyle and realize that I did spend my early childhood in forest and acute hearing senses were developed during those time. For the record, nearly 10 percent of the population could see 3D image with 3D television. P.s. I typed this with mobile phone and couldn’t scroll upwards to check the text. So I may edit it later with pc.
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STC
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Post by STC on Sept 15, 2019 13:21:52 GMT 10
Added. I think I have criticized Ambiophonics and crosstalk more than anyone else. I disagreed with the implementation and my own method do not follow the literatures on crosstalk cancellation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 16:40:55 GMT 10
One of the strange phenomenon that I pick up from the above photo is when I view it next to the source black & white image, it actually fools my eyes into thinking that some bits untouched part of the picture so not look monochromatic, rather they have a tint. The woman's hair just off centre in the photo looks like a dark chestnut colour and the back wall, to me has a slight creamy tint. Which is clearly not there in the original. This could be a bit disconcerting but having come from a design background, I know that the Dulux colour Atlas has special cards that you sit around the square samples to surround them with a white, mid grey or black frame. This dramatically alters our perception of the colour. The idea being that you use the appropriate frame to suit the environment in which the colour will be used. I don't see any of this as deception. I believe (in my humble lay person opinion) that our senses are to a varying degree, adaptive. That is to say, our brains are constantly trying to adapt to circumstances in order to process data in a useful manner. I can't really comment on the adaptive nature of sound as I haven't studied it in any depth. Example. Is square A lighter, darker or the same as B?
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Post by ROWUK on Sept 15, 2019 16:51:58 GMT 10
And for me, the trickery is what makes stereo so enjoyable, not the specs!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 16:55:33 GMT 10
And for me, the trickery is what makes stereo so enjoyable, not the specs! Indeed, one of my aims in improving my system is to make the "deception" so great that it temporarily suspends disbelief. I was amazed to hear an incredible illusion once in a system that comprised a high end Rega CD transport, an NAD M2 amplifier and some mid-level Sonus Faber speakers. During a performance of the Dallas Wind Symphony Bass "Excerpt From "The Vikings" on the TDK Reference CD I heard a diorama of the orchestra in my mind's eye. I could hear the height of the orchestra and the fact that the organ was set back and to the side some distance from the front of the stage. Now this was all illusion no doubt as it would have been multi-mic'ed. And I've seen debate on here and elsewhere that height data can't be captured in normal 2 channel. Regardless, it sounded glorious for the time in which I stood and listened to it. (I note that the ability to provide depth perception was one of the main attractions of the M2 according JA in Stereophile - link)
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Post by ROWUK on Sept 15, 2019 19:35:26 GMT 10
And for me, the trickery is what makes stereo so enjoyable, not the specs! Indeed, one of my aims in improving my system is to make the "deception" so great that it temporarily suspends disbelief. I was amazed to hear an incredible illusion once in a system that comprised a high end Rega CD transport, an NAD M2 amplifier and some mid-level Sonus Faber speakers. During a performance of the Dallas Wind Symphony Bass "Excerpt From "The Vikings" on the TDK Reference CD I heard a diorama of the orchestra in my mind's eye. I could hear the height of the orchestra and the fact that the organ was set back and to the side some distance from the front of the stage. Now this was all illusion no doubt as it would have been multi-mic'ed. And I've seen debate on here and elsewhere that height data can't be captured in normal 2 channel. Regardless, it sounded glorious for the time in which I stood and listened to it. (I note that the ability to provide depth perception was one of the main attractions of the M2 according JA in Stereophile - link) Now wait until you find an old mono LP recording or 78rpm record that gives you this trickery! It is possible and does give one a sense of accomplishment.
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