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Post by johndyson on Nov 15, 2019 21:24:41 GMT 10
I'll keep these online for a few days.. These are technically correct, but both did have some susequent manipulation. In the case of 'Linda' it was very minor, but in the case of ABBA -- I found out what those b*st*rds did to the sound, and it goes FAR beyond the need to DolbyA decode or EQ. They did some evil things, and I found them out!!!
More 'fun' examples for review or listening. The Linda Ronstadt examples are single disk, I have some individual albums also, but they all decode and EQ the same as these. The ABBA 'RingRing' album (all of them are actually decoded and ready) have 2 more steps of 'correction' that the really evil mastering people did. If I tell you what the correction was, it might be a bit of turn off -- but they did one level of correction that makes DolbyA decoding technically impossible. This one level is the PRIMARY REASON why ABBA has the unstable kind of sound. These new decodes have ALL of one form of corruption and about 2/3 of the other form removed. There is a real technical reason why I didn't remove all of the final form of corruption and it has to do with maintaining the capability of special knowledge listeners. Don't worry about deep reviews, but if you hear something really bad -- tell me. 1) Linda Ronstadt Compilation: www.dropbox.com/sh/gd6ufk6v22eus4z/AABNqC2Yd7bgm9v8lmlH9ogDa?dl=0 2) ABBA RingRing (with Bobby's Brother) www.dropbox.com/sh/blv1pv6blyoyqzd/AACHu6IVbcx7t0ZnX11wxcG1a?dl=0 |
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Post by johndyson on Nov 17, 2019 5:25:30 GMT 10
I ran into this 2010 Remaster of Breakfast In America, A&M... It needed decoding, so gave it a try... What do you think? (The Logical Song.) I used the same parameters as what I used for some of the Carpenters stuff.. I do know that it is pretty well compressed, but still sounds good... One thing -- I tried mp3 encoding it, even at the highest possible quality level -- even setting tweaks on 'LAME' encoder, and it cannot do this justice at all... www.dropbox.com/s/zcw62d0q9lqdktq/02%20-%20The%20Logical%20Song.flac?dl=0 |
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Post by ROWUK on Nov 17, 2019 7:13:31 GMT 10
I ran into this 2010 Remaster of Breakfast In America, A&M... It needed decoding, so gave it a try... What do you think? (The Logical Song.) I used the same parameters as what I used for some of the Carpenters stuff.. I do know that it is pretty well compressed, but still sounds good... One thing -- I tried mp3 encoding it, even at the highest possible quality level -- even setting tweaks on 'LAME' encoder, and it cannot do this justice at all... www.dropbox.com/s/zcw62d0q9lqdktq/02%20-%20The%20Logical%20Song.flac?dl=0I like this much better than the LP. As the voices are relatively high volume and higher pitched, there was not much in the range that I had trouble with in the other examples. This cut also has bass comparable in volume to the original LP. The sax is much more "real". I would consider this "success". |
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Post by johndyson on Nov 17, 2019 7:43:02 GMT 10
I ran into this 2010 Remaster of Breakfast In America, A&M... It needed decoding, so gave it a try... What do you think? (The Logical Song.) I used the same parameters as what I used for some of the Carpenters stuff.. I do know that it is pretty well compressed, but still sounds good... One thing -- I tried mp3 encoding it, even at the highest possible quality level -- even setting tweaks on 'LAME' encoder, and it cannot do this justice at all... www.dropbox.com/s/zcw62d0q9lqdktq/02%20-%20The%20Logical%20Song.flac?dl=0I like this much better than the LP. As the voices are relatively high volume and higher pitched, there was not much in the range that I had trouble with in the other examples. This cut also has bass comparable in volume to the original LP. The sax is much more "real". I would consider this "success". Thank you!!!
I think you know that almost every example is an experiment... When I get useful and descriptive feedback, I truly utilize the input to improve. A lot of my examples are unintentionally subpar -- I push my hearing way too hard, and then it starts adapting. It is SOOO frustrating. Believe me, if we can figure out the reverse EQ (undo the molestation during ersatz mastering), the results CAN be beautiful. I am not an artist and don't have an artists temperment, even though feelings sometimes do get hurt. The goal is to recover lost beauty -- I am definitely not inventing music -- trying to support/help it I am happy to decode specially loved recordings for people gratis, but would require some patience and for ideal results -- a reference copy of the desired frequency response balance/etc.
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Background information -- not a direct answer, but maybe to provide an idea of what the DHNRDS is about, my attempt to help 'music':
My not-so-secret wish would be for Beatles and other old & great group's recordings utilize the DHNRDS DA instead of a DolbyA, or avoiding errsatz decoding with EQ only. This is not an ego thing with me -- I do suspect that the value of the DHNRDS DA might be more appreciated after I am 'gone' (nothing is impending, no worries!!!) There might be a time in the future that researchers might want to hear more accurately what the recording sounded like before being recorded on DolbyA encoded tape. The DHNRDS is NOT intended to actually replace true DolbyA units except for certain use -- or for extreme requirements for quality & very low distortion. The DHNRDS is playback only and will never be able to encode (encoding is easier anyway, less of a challenge :-)).
I hope to provide 'interesting' decodes from time to time, and certainly accept ideas for source material!!!
* The DHNRDS is very good, but not a perfect solution for DolbyA decoding, but unlike a true DolbyA, there is no downside in quality when a DHNRDS DA is used to decode material. There are definitely times when decoding material with DolbyA HW will sound inferior in todays environment because there are distortions and 'softness' caused by the DolbyA HW decoding method and limitations (however ingenius it was.) Additionally, material that has been digitally archived can be decoded directly with the DHNRDS, and analog tapes can be played directly onto a digital medium for simplified repeated decoding attempts to zero-in on absolutely the best quality results. Esp for 2trk stereo recordings, this decoding in the digital domain is very advantageous when attempting to maximize quality, carefully balance channels and calibration well under 0.05dB, if desired. Doing the iterative test decodes for optimum sound quality require no manipulation of HW other than changing a command line parameter. Also, if material has been archived by LOC procedures (not necessarily NR decoded), then decodes can be done directly in digital in faster-than-realtime.
* Even if the DHNRDS doesn't get used much -- it was a hell of a project, and *with some patience in set-up*, I get to hear music very close to the sound BEFORE it was recorded onto a DolbyA/Tape deck back 30+yrs ago... Unfortunately, I have very few master tapes with tones :-(. Contrary to common opinion, material without tones can be decoded relatively cleanly -- but I try hard to bring back joy to those with lots of material on digital media -- but is typically left with a DolbyA imprint. I offer free use of the DHNRDS to hobby users or prospective professional users, and the purchase price is minimal (a very small nuisance fee.) I would never feel comfortable asking for money from a very technical and hyper-patience consumer user -- it is NOT easy to use for most people.
So, this goal is altruistic and as far from 'snake oil' as can be. Thanks again, I try REALLY hard to encourage enjoyment.
John
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Post by ROWUK on Nov 17, 2019 8:18:41 GMT 10
Hi John,
I really do appreciate what you are reverse engineering. As a professional trumpeter, my listening habits are far away from audiophile. Any “criticism” about recordings is based on 50 years of being on stage with other musicians, mostly in non amplified venues. Having been in many productions, I do know what liberties the engineers take. I have also spent the last 5 years trying to work out a good sounding substitute for dbx decoding. Very frustrating indeed.
I happen to have a lot of vinyl because there is a lot of music that was never digitized. Many reference orchestral recordings simply are only available in the analog domain. I consider analog and digital both to be capable of the highest levels of reproduction. Digital certainly is more convenient.
I took a listen to Abba, ONJ and LR tonight. The results are the same as the rest of last week. Fever is really something special however. The
Logical Song is also very, very good. Better than the LP. You can almost touch the voice.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator 
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Nov 17, 2019 8:33:21 GMT 10
Hi John, I really do appreciate what you are reverse engineering. As a professional trumpeter, my listening habits are far away from audiophile. Any “criticism” about recordings is based on 50 years of being on stage with other musicians, mostly in non amplified venues. Having been in many productions, I do know what liberties the engineers take. I have also spent the last 5 years trying to work out a good sounding substitute for dbx decoding. Very frustrating indeed. I happen to have a lot of vinyl because there is a lot of music that was never digitized. Many reference orchestral recordings simply are only available in the analog domain. I consider analog and digital both to be capable of the highest levels of reproduction. Digital certainly is more convenient. I took a listen to Abba, ONJ and LR tonight. The results are the same as the rest of last week. Fever is really something special however. The Logical Song is also very, very good. Better than the LP. You can almost touch the voice. Hi Robin It sounds much better than the Japanese SHM version, but how does it compare it with the Mobile Fidelity version ? I am not familiar with this particular song. I see also that this album is available on BluRay with what appears to be 5.1 surround
www.dropbox.com/s/etuwevhykh85ca3/02.%20The%20Logical%20Song.wav?dl=0
Kind Regards Alex
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Post by johndyson on Nov 17, 2019 8:58:04 GMT 10
Hi John, I really do appreciate what you are reverse engineering. As a professional trumpeter, my listening habits are far away from audiophile. Any “criticism” about recordings is based on 50 years of being on stage with other musicians, mostly in non amplified venues. Having been in many productions, I do know what liberties the engineers take. I have also spent the last 5 years trying to work out a good sounding substitute for dbx decoding. Very frustrating indeed. I happen to have a lot of vinyl because there is a lot of music that was never digitized. Many reference orchestral recordings simply are only available in the analog domain. I consider analog and digital both to be capable of the highest levels of reproduction. Digital certainly is more convenient. I took a listen to Abba, ONJ and LR tonight. The results are the same as the rest of last week. Fever is really something special however. The Logical Song is also very, very good. Better than the LP. You can almost touch the voice. Hi Robin It sounds much better than the Japanese SHM version, but how does it compare it with the Mobile Fidelity version ? I am not familiar with this particular song. I see also that this album is available on BluRay with what appears to be 5.1 surround
www.dropbox.com/s/etuwevhykh85ca3/02.%20The%20Logical%20Song.wav?dl=0
Kind Regards Alex
I promise one thing about ABBA -- it will never be perfect. I just figured out yesterday that they matrixed (narrowed) the L+R before encoding/decoding, which because of the fast attack/release causes distortion on EVERY version of ABBA that I have heard -- except those not decoded. I JUST got rid of the strange thing, and I think doing a final decode. It is so exquisitely complex to do correctly -- esp ABBA.
For LR -- they did an eccentric kind of EQ on her recordings... It had confounded me until yesterday. A few of her recordings in my hands are definitely inferior -- guess I'll have to search around like for ABBA. Alex has some prelim Linda Ronstadt big band stuff -- it is VERY prelim, but the first results bode well for the next version.
ONJ -- her recordings are already pretty good (that is, the EMI disk, even though it IS DolbyA.) I am revisting her stuff again.
I do apologize about an obvious issue -- Alex knows and cautions me about this -- my hearing gets borked after working too hard, and I end up producing substandard results when I must adjust the feral DolbyA stuff. It is painfully slow and error prone to do the decodes.. Real recording professionals that I know have warned me about the evil things done to the consumer recordings -- but I am too stupid to give up... That 'stupidity' is why the DHNRDS really works and except for a lack of distortion, sounds like a DolbyA (even frequency repsonse vs. time is very close!!!) My 'affliction' makes my life a world of learning and continual failure until the completion of the project...
PLEASE feel free to kindly criticise -- if you are kind enough to be as detailed as you can -- I will respect your comments and try to learn from them... I will try to better avoid making mistakes to avoid wasting any listening effort done by you -- I do appreciate the criticism -- I take it personally, but as something to be solved, not as an insult.
John
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Post by cj66 on Nov 17, 2019 21:45:41 GMT 10
I only compared this to a compilation rip but as I already emailed to Alex, it has a much fuller tone without losing detail and inflection. My rip was also overly "hot" which was not present here.
I like the BiA album and think I have a DVDA rip lurking somewhere so will go in search.
The main point being John's version is very good indeed.
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Post by johndyson on Nov 17, 2019 23:31:11 GMT 10
First: Thanks again for the feedback.. I really like positive responses, but am appreciative of helpful criticism also!!! Here is the main reason for this post -- I get a windfall from a friend who has lots of useful materials for testing... Perfectly clean copies of "Crime of the Century' and 'Breakfast in America'!!! These undecoded&unmolested copies are interestingly different from the A&M 2010 remaster of the 'Breakfast' album. There is a bit of an educational experience by listening to the 'RAW unmolested' vs. 'A&M reamastered' versions. When doing the comparison myself, it makes me wonder why there is additional processing done to the remastered version. (BTW, the decoded A&M remaster appears to have a similar kind of sound to Alex's MFSL reamaster. The A&M and MFSL are NOT identical - locally decoded A&M might be a little more clean, but a more similar kind of sound.) Usefully, the MFSL version WAS DolbyA decoded - which gives a reference base as to how my necessarily ad-hoc (but careful) decodes should sound. Note that the A&M version was in an undecoded state, and I decoded both the raw copy and the A&M to have a similar frequency response balance to the MFSL version. Dont be surprised if the raw version sounds less loud for a given peak level than the A&M version. It is pretty clear that part of the difference is because of some compression on the A&M version -- just to forewarn. This is why I didn't bother normalizing. Also, I apologize for the sloppy levels on the 'raw' decode -- I didn't leave any 'wiggle room' on the signal, the decode just happened to come out very close to the maximum peak level. Except for rate conversion for space savings, and a small amount of post-EQ to make the frequency response balance more similar -- I did no gratuitious changes to any recrodings. I am providing two different songs (four items) to compare: Breakfast in America - A&M decode vs raw decode The Logical Song - A&M decode vs raw decode (the decodes from apparently raw source have '-r' in the filename) Breakfast A&M decode: www.dropbox.com/s/ppc08vejk2y4pai/04%20-%20Breakfast%20In%20America.flac?dl=0Breakfast RAW decode: www.dropbox.com/s/cqg96vsng01kcw9/04-Breakfast%20in%20America-r.flac?dl=0Logical A&M decode: www.dropbox.com/s/zcw62d0q9lqdktq/02%20-%20The%20Logical%20Song.flac?dl=0Logical RAW decode: www.dropbox.com/s/qehucvarvxj9bum/02-The%20Logical%20Song-r.flac?dl=0 |
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Nov 18, 2019 10:09:33 GMT 10
Hi John
As expected, the R versions sound markedly better all round , with improved dynamics too.
The differences were even more obvious right from the start with Breakfast in America, which is cleaner sounding and a little softer initially.
I would like to see some reports from the members who already have these tracks on Vinyl though, where more care was taken with the Mastering, of necessity due to RIAA equalisation being needed.
Kind Regards
Alex
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Post by johndyson on Nov 18, 2019 13:58:16 GMT 10
OMG -- just decoded 'Crime of the Century' with the new 'no holds barred' decode settings. MAN -- it makes "breakfast' sound like AM radio (okay, sounds like CB radio.) It is AMAZING.
This would definitely be worth listening. I didn't know that the DHNRDS DA could sound so very good!!!
John
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Post by ROWUK on Nov 19, 2019 6:40:16 GMT 10
First: Thanks again for the feedback.. I really like positive responses, but am appreciative of helpful criticism also!!! Here is the main reason for this post -- I get a windfall from a friend who has lots of useful materials for testing... Perfectly clean copies of "Crime of the Century' and 'Breakfast in America'!!! These undecoded&unmolested copies are interestingly different from the A&M 2010 remaster of the 'Breakfast' album. There is a bit of an educational experience by listening to the 'RAW unmolested' vs. 'A&M reamastered' versions. When doing the comparison myself, it makes me wonder why there is additional processing done to the remastered version. (BTW, the decoded A&M remaster appears to have a similar kind of sound to Alex's MFSL reamaster. The A&M and MFSL are NOT identical - locally decoded A&M might be a little more clean, but a more similar kind of sound.) Usefully, the MFSL version WAS DolbyA decoded - which gives a reference base as to how my necessarily ad-hoc (but careful) decodes should sound. Note that the A&M version was in an undecoded state, and I decoded both the raw copy and the A&M to have a similar frequency response balance to the MFSL version. Dont be surprised if the raw version sounds less loud for a given peak level than the A&M version. It is pretty clear that part of the difference is because of some compression on the A&M version -- just to forewarn. This is why I didn't bother normalizing. Also, I apologize for the sloppy levels on the 'raw' decode -- I didn't leave any 'wiggle room' on the signal, the decode just happened to come out very close to the maximum peak level. Except for rate conversion for space savings, and a small amount of post-EQ to make the frequency response balance more similar -- I did no gratuitious changes to any recrodings. I am providing two different songs (four items) to compare: Breakfast in America - A&M decode vs raw decode The Logical Song - A&M decode vs raw decode (the decodes from apparently raw source have '-r' in the filename) Breakfast A&M decode: www.dropbox.com/s/ppc08vejk2y4pai/04%20-%20Breakfast%20In%20America.flac?dl=0Breakfast RAW decode: www.dropbox.com/s/cqg96vsng01kcw9/04-Breakfast%20in%20America-r.flac?dl=0Logical A&M decode: www.dropbox.com/s/zcw62d0q9lqdktq/02%20-%20The%20Logical%20Song.flac?dl=0Logical RAW decode: www.dropbox.com/s/qehucvarvxj9bum/02-The%20Logical%20Song-r.flac?dl=0Now, the raw flacs do it for me. I even discovered new instruments in the Crime of the Century. There is a bass trombone in there in places that I have never heard before. The singers voice qualities (articulation, overtones) are uniform at all volumes. The Logical Song is VERY interesting. |
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Post by johndyson on Nov 20, 2019 12:23:22 GMT 10
Got a bunch of snippets (sorry) of material from Olivia Newton John (her singles, Soul Kiss), SuperTramp, the Carpenters HD singles remasters, Dire straits (money for nothing), and probably a few others. These results -- even the Carpeteners and ABBA are pretty darned good. Supplied both mp3 and flac snippets, I know that the motivation to download the flac versions might be lower because of the shortened examples -- but mp3 does pretty good except in a few cases (an olivia newton john example dies a horrible death with mp3), the rest are just degraded a bit. The clarity of the decode should be fairly eye opening.
PS: the mp3's sometimes have a 'sawblade' kind of sound on material with intense highs. flac always resolves that problem, and the online mp3 decoder is worse than playing the mp3s locally. However, the mp3s are there for quick convenience, but are more imperfect than the higher detail flacs!!!
These were intended for a larger scale forum, so snippets were much more appropriate than full files -- of course, full files available upon individual request!!! Enjoy -- kind criticism is always welcome. www.dropbox.com/sh/90pdyi084bofje7/AACrdifmkZfKfPUJRprWwYdGa?dl=0John |
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Nov 22, 2019 8:16:40 GMT 10
I have just started listening to John's most recent (today) DHNRDS DA corrected version of Supertramp-Crime of the Century.
Through my PC gear and headphones, track 06.Rudy, which I had previously focussed on mainly, is very 3Dimensional sounding, and now well and truly into DEMO material area.
Please PM me if you would like to hear some samples.
Kind Regards
Alex
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Post by johndyson on Nov 23, 2019 23:47:30 GMT 10
Since this forum isn't too awfully big -- there is a full decode of 'Crime of the Century' available. This is with the newest reverse EQ parameters. Previously, the 1k -> 3k range wasn't handled with as much precision as should have been. Also, the EQ filters skirts are rolled off much more carefully - the biggest difference for me is that the sound is less 'mechanical' or 'hard'. There is more consistent ambient detail -- I don't speak the audio language, but there is more natural environment sound of sorts. * Note: there is NO creativity in the reverse EQ, but instead it is an attempt to UNDO the creative conversion from raw DolbyA to a listenable version of raw DolbyA. There is a lot of tedium and care when trying to undo the previously added EQ, and intuition atttempting to find the EQ is very helpful.
This was not downconverted or dithered to 16bits, but is the full signal coming out of the DA decoder. Unfortunately, I am starting with 44.1k/16bit CD with DolbyA encoding, but since proper decoding with DolbyA sort-of gives another 1 to 1.5 bit (6 to 9 dB) of audible detail/precision, the results should seem pretty good. Also, the files are 88.2k (2X 44.1k), which is the DSP rate used in the decoder. A normal DolbyA would create out-of-band splats quite freely when decoding, but if you look at the output spectrum -- there might be a little hash in the signal above 20k, but not much. The nature of gain control is that it will create sidebands, but the anti-modulation-distorrtion mechanism in the decoder keeps sidebands and distortion splats way-way-way under control. Theoretically, since the DHNRDS DA is so careful about producing distortion, the signal at a 48k sample rate should be the same as at 88.2k sample rate. For the review purposes, ALL of the signal from the decoder is being delivered JUST IN CASE I am wrong :-).
Constructive criticism is welcome, kudos are nice, but being picky about the possibility of doing better is best  . Of course, kindness always There will be a large (probably 20 or more) collection of pop recordings in the next day or so. It has been delayed a little because of the improved reverse EQ necessitating another decoding pass, and the large amount of time to decode numerous albums.
John
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. Of course, kindness always