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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 22:05:21 GMT 10
Indeed, one of my aims in improving my system is to make the "deception" so great that it temporarily suspends disbelief. I was amazed to hear an incredible illusion once in a system that comprised a high end Rega CD transport, an NAD M2 amplifier and some mid-level Sonus Faber speakers. During a performance of the Dallas Wind Symphony Bass "Excerpt From "The Vikings" on the TDK Reference CD I heard a diorama of the orchestra in my mind's eye. I could hear the height of the orchestra and the fact that the organ was set back and to the side some distance from the front of the stage. Now this was all illusion no doubt as it would have been multi-mic'ed. And I've seen debate on here and elsewhere that height data can't be captured in normal 2 channel. Regardless, it sounded glorious for the time in which I stood and listened to it. (I note that the ability to provide depth perception was one of the main attractions of the M2 according JA in Stereophile - link) Now wait until you find an old mono LP recording or 78rpm record that gives you this trickery! It is possible and does give one a sense of accomplishment. As long as I can play it through Roon.
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Sept 16, 2019 10:32:43 GMT 10
I don't see any of this as deception. I believe (in my humble lay person opinion) that our senses are to a varying degree, adaptive. That is to say, our brains are constantly trying to adapt to circumstances in order to process data in a useful manner. I can't really comment on the adaptive nature of sound as I haven't studied it in any depth. Hi Mark
I couldn't agree more! It is perception which at the end of the day is an experience of mind or at least an interpretation made by the brain to make sense of the world, and yes adapting in a helpful and clever way.
It wasn't until visiting audio fora that I came across much more reductionist and indeed dismissive views that proferred distrust of the senses and perceptual processing as being almost necessarily flawed. "You can't trust your ears" becoming something of a mantra for some.
This raises all sorts of philosophical questions about the notion of reality. In this thread we have discussed perception of colour. From a physics perspective objects do not have "colour". Colour is a percept. Physical things can only appear to have a colour due to their interaction with light in terms of parts absorbed, reflected, transmitted, scattered, diffracted etc The manner in which visible light interacts with an object is dependent upon the frequency of the light and the nature of the atoms of the object. The sky is blue at certain times of the day only because of how air molecules interacts with light, scattering blue wavelenghts much more than longer wavelenghts. If you collect a jar of that air I submit it will not look blue. Colour perception is also dependent on ambient levels of light, without light there is no colour.
You could argue that some objects emit a light frequency. Candles and tungsten lights emit a "redder light" and in photographic terminology this difference in the relative intensity of blue to red is called colour temperature. Even then, like "brightness" the percept of "colour" only exists in the mind of the beholder. With vision, like audio, it is possible to quantify various attributes of the stimulus like luminance, frequency and so forth but colour does not become colour until perceived in the brain.
So philosophically what is illusion and what is reality. Is reality concordance between the physical stimulus and the experience perceived? Is it illusion if many people's brains can fuse two incoming stimuli and perceive it as something else? I submit this is not "illusion" in many cases, not trickery or deception, but just exemplar of the normal functioning of the brain. The sky really isn't blue but then again it really is for all practical purposes especially if we all mostly see it that way.
Neuropsychiatrically illusions arise from altered or mis-perception or distortion of real world external stimuli, they are often shared with peers, to variable degrees. There has to be real world stimuli. Others will disagree but personally I don't 'see' a blue sky as being an illusion or a phantom stereo image as illusory in the strict sense of the word, they are just normal perceptions.
Like the Bruce Cockburn lyric says "Depends on what you look at obviously, but even more it depends on the way that you see." At the end of the day it comes down I think to whether you subscribe to Dick "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" or (allegedly) Einstein "Reality is merely illusion albeit a very persistent one", or perhaps reality is just a shared illusion...
Reality is just a shared illusion
Sitting here longing for a meaning to my life
My past regrets and failures glean me like a knife
to look back is futile, but ahead just as bad
for the future shrouds in mystery and brings the looming scent of death
my purpose doth allude me and allows a precarious note
of hope strung in the future in silver streams of hollow smoke
I've grasped the vast philosophies of religions near and far
Heard the subtle outcries of revolutionists to par
But if my life lay before me predestined in a scheme
Then I'd be no more than passing through another travelers dream
And if I am but atoms misanthropically aligned head to toe
Then my life holds little value in this, the universal flow
For then what would it matter what I do day to day, today?
Would not the world continue on complete alone without me
If God were hosting this extravagant affair
Reasoning would have it there would be more proof of Him
If chance were on the other hand wielding the control
Then where pray tell did the original atom receive it's form
Life is an ever circling blackhole of questioning
the answers to which are rarely met with clarity
so how to piece together this puzzle laid before me
to alleviate my baffled mind and create the world of my dreams
Do I search a thousand years for an answer unique to me
A world of pristine understanding devoid of this soliloque
Alas I lay here laden with fear as I slowly drift to this conclusion
Perhaps the answer lies within
Then reality is just a shared illusion.
Chelsea Martinez
David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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Post by ROWUK on Sept 16, 2019 12:58:21 GMT 10
Is not the perception vs deception merely an issue of viewpoint? If I do something to fool you (lie, cheat, even play my stereo or show you coloured pictures), that is deception. Your ability to „analyse“ or enjoy what I did is perception. I cannot perceive for you but can deceive you.
It is the job of a good playback system to deceive. It is our job to „analyse“ and enjoy!
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Sept 16, 2019 13:42:29 GMT 10
Is not the perception vs deception merely an issue of viewpoint? If I do something to fool you (lie, cheat, even play my stereo or show you coloured pictures), that is deception. Your ability to „analyse“ or enjoy what I did is perception. I cannot perceive for you but can deceive you. It is the job of a good playback system to deceive. It is our job to „analyse“ and enjoy! Hi Robin My issue with "deception" is exemplified by the first google hit for definition "Deception is defined as an untrue falsehood, or is the act of lying to or tricking someone. An example of deception is when you tell someone you are 30 when really you are 40." The broader philosophical issue is a metaphysical question involving ontology and epistemology. How do we know anything is real. For me, the brain doing what it is supposed to do is not deception, it is a version of reality as valid as anyone elses and when shared with peers, a shared reality, not hallucination, not delusion, not deception. Now sure, in the case of say the phantom image of a vocalist or trumpet the vocalist or trumpet is not really there but the sound *is really there*. The only question remains how close are these two valid perceptions and that is where the "suspension of disbelief" comes into play for me, comparing reproduced vs original sound. David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 20:41:17 GMT 10
René Descartes , Discourse on the Method,[Ad # ad-5] "I will suppose, then, that a certain evil genius, no less cunning and deceiving than powerful, has used all his industry to deceive me; I will think that the sky, the air, the earth, the colors, the figures, the sounds, and all the other external things are nothing but illusions and reverie which he has used to set traps for my credulity. ; I will consider myself as having no hands, no eyes, no flesh, no blood; as having no meaning, but falsely believing to have all these things; I will remain stubbornly attached to this thought; and if, by this means, it is not in my power to come to the knowledge of any truth, at least it is in my power to suspend my judgement: that is why I will be careful not to receive in my belief no falsity,"
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Sept 16, 2019 22:27:51 GMT 10
René Descartes , Discourse on the Method,[Ad # ad-5] "I will suppose, then, that a certain evil genius, no less cunning and deceiving than powerful, has used all his industry to deceive me; I will think that the sky, the air, the earth, the colors, the figures, the sounds, and all the other external things are nothing but illusions and reverie which he has used to set traps for my credulity. ; I will consider myself as having no hands, no eyes, no flesh, no blood; as having no meaning, but falsely believing to have all these things; I will remain stubbornly attached to this thought; and if, by this means, it is not in my power to come to the knowledge of any truth, at least it is in my power to suspend my judgement: that is why I will be careful not to receive in my belief no falsity," Cogito ergo sum (René Descartes , Discourse on the Method / Meditations on First Philosophy) "when I considered that the very same thoughts (presentations) which we experience when awake may also be experienced when we are asleep, while there is at that time not one of them true, I supposed that all the objects (presentations) that had ever entered into my mind when awake, had in them no more truth than the illusions of my dreams. But immediately upon this I observed that, whilst I thus wished to think that all was false, it was absolutely necessary that I, who thus thought, should be something; And as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am, was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged by the Sceptics capable of shaking it, I concluded that I might, without scruple, accept it as the first principle of the philosophy of which I was in search"
Shakespeare's Hamlet " for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
Cogito ergo sum: IMHO Descartes' most memorable philosophy. The whole mind body dualism thing, not so much
David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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jkenny
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Post by jkenny on Oct 12, 2019 22:38:22 GMT 10
Illusions, as seen in this thread, demonstrate certain aspects of how a particular sense operates - like scumbag, I don't consider it deception, it's our perception that has been honed to be fit for purpose.
What you notice about this is that context is the determining factor in almost all illusions These type of errors are mostly of little consequence regarding our interpretation of the world - in fact the rules of analysis that are being followed by our perception are learned from how objects behave in the world either visually or in the audio domain so it's not surprising that the interpretation that perception arrives at is usually how objects normally behave in a real-world context.
What this again reveals is that perceptions work by analysis/interpretation of the mix of incoming signals - an analysis model which is learned from the real world behaviour (visual or audio) of objects.
Two channel stereo cannot produce the same soundfield as in the real world - two point sources trying to recreate a many point sources so 'tricks' that appeal to auditory perception have to be used.
The illusion of 'realism' in our playback systems is determined by how closely the soundfield created matches the above factors used by auditory perception to analyse sound. This gets complicated when a recording is not a straight 2 mic stereo recording of a performance & probably 99% of commercial recordings are not done in this way.
So the recording itself is an art form - close-micing, the configuration of the mics used, the multiple recordings done at different times which are mixed into the one track with the use of techniques at the mixing stage. The closer these techniques follow auditory perception rules/analysis, the more realistic, better illusion should result.
The final fly in the ointment is the playback system itself & how well this reproduces all the cues on the recording, without introducing any of it's own factors which dilute/confuse the cues & therefore the illusion.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
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Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Oct 13, 2019 8:09:31 GMT 10
Two channel stereo cannot produce the same soundfield as in the real world - two point sources trying to recreate a many point sources so 'tricks' that appeal to auditory perception have to be used. The illusion of 'realism' in our playback systems is determined by how closely the soundfield created matches the above factors used by auditory perception to analyse sound. This gets complicated when a recording is not a straight 2 mic stereo recording of a performance & probably 99% of commercial recordings are not done in this way. So the recording itself is an art form - close-micing, the configuration of the mics used, the multiple recordings done at different times which are mixed into the one track with the use of techniques at the mixing stage. The closer these techniques follow auditory perception rules/analysis, the more realistic, better illusion should result. The final fly in the ointment is the playback system itself & how well this reproduces all the cues on the recording, without introducing any of it's own factors which dilute/confuse the cues & therefore the illusion. Hi John
One of those tricks is Dolby Surround as used with many HD TV transmissions as well as movies. If your system is good enough, you can retrieve much of this additional phase information without the need for a Dolby Decoder and hear a surprising amount of Surround Sound from just 2 Stereo speakers. Kind Regards Alex
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STC
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Post by STC on Oct 13, 2019 16:10:02 GMT 10
....... What this again reveals is that perceptions work by analysis/interpretation of the mix of incoming signals - an analysis model which is learned from the real world behaviour (visual or audio) of objects. Two channel stereo cannot produce the same soundfield as in the real world - two point sources trying to recreate a many point sources so 'tricks' that appeal to auditory perception have to be used. The illusion of 'realism' in our playback systems is determined by how closely the soundfield created matches the above factors used by auditory perception to analyse sound. This gets complicated when a recording is not a straight 2 mic stereo recording of a performance & probably 99% of commercial recordings are not done in this way. I agree that we familiarize our self with different sound source and equating them to the real acoustic events but if we desire to reproduce the actual event as close as the original event than a mere two speakers reproduction will not work. A recording can be one that intend to recreate the original sound and the other is to recreate the sound heard by us. For the latter, we only need two channels and the reproduction of those will be identical (almost) as the original event. This is the best method. However, this method works with headphones only. If you were to use loudspeakers to reproduce them the localization cues are no longer identical to the original event that we heard and a overly bright sound due to pinna filtering. Using stereo reproduction to recreate the original sound can never be accurate nor natural. Firstly, the original sound that was captured do not represent the sound at the listener's position. For the sake of the argument, let's say the microphones are located at the conductor platform. Can this now be considered to be the exact replica of the original event? No. what the microphone is recording at the spot consists of the direct sound and ambiance. Again for the sake of the argument, let's say a violin is located at 30 degrees to the left. A stereo recording should able to reproduce the location of violin accurately when played with a equilateral triangle loudspeakers setup. This is only correct as far as the violin location (ignoring interaural crosstalk for now) but what about the ambiance direction of the ambiance. Ambiance in human hearing plays a very important role to the determine the space. This sound reaches our ears from omni direction. From the information of the ambiance we sense the depth and room size. This information although correctly captured in the recording, they are reproduced from a fixed direction of the two loudspeakers. They all come to you from only one direction and therefor it can never be natural nor accurate. Lately, you may get a chance to listen to good 5.1 or even ATMOS musical recordings. Here the ambiance cue a little better than stereo because we are now having the ambiance coming from more than one fixed position. Are they perfect? No but better than stereo. Just spend less than $100 to buy a binaural microphones and record a performance. Make another one with ORTF microphones technique. The binauaral will be the closest to live performance as heard by you.
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jkenny
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Post by jkenny on Oct 22, 2019 5:03:12 GMT 10
I'm not trying to argue that two channel stereo reproduction will be perceived exactly like the real event but it can be sufficiently convincing (within its own limitations) to provide a more realistic illusion if enough of the perceptual cues are adhered to. In the same way that we regularly watch TV/movie screens with frames per second or scan lines being how the images are displayed but which is nothing close to real world & yet it can be a pleasing & interesting experience even though it's 2D. As it turns out this flickering of the image is not perceived by most of us & so is perceptually irrelevant. Yet when a fading pure colour tone is being reproduced on TV screens the compression algorithm can often result in banding seen in the colour reproduced - this banding is immediately noticeable as an anomaly that is unnatural. On a more subtle level we perceive HD TV as more pleasingly realistic than SD TV - why? More subtle colour cues in the images?
I'm of the opinion that audio reproduction is the same but we have not yet fully uncovered all the subtle cues used by auditory perception in a dynamically changing audio stream that provides a more realistic illusion
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
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About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Oct 22, 2019 6:43:02 GMT 10
Hi John
Very well stated. I am 100% in agreement with you on this reply.
To do this however, we normally have to markedly improve the integrity of the Digital area by taking advantage of more recent technology , and especially improve the quality of the power supply areas as manufacturers such as yourself are doing. However, the closed minded attitude of many E.E.s isn't helping, with their often outdated technical knowledge, and stubborn refusal to accept numerous reports where things that according to current theory aren't supposed to happen, yet do. I am referring here especially to the Cables area where most refuse to accept numerous reports that there is more to it than just getting the actual Binary Data correct, especially where USB audio is concerned. Many people are also able to hear differences between typical Coax SPDIF cables of a similar length, yet currently accepted dogma says that this should also be impossible also. Personally, I believe that the currently accepted limitations of Human hearing are well out of date, and that our hearing is capable of much more than simple sine wave testing shows.
Kind Regards Alex
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jkenny
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Post by jkenny on Oct 22, 2019 8:12:46 GMT 10
Yes, Alex, I'm with you on the "accepted limitations of hearing" being out of date & more realistic tests are needed which is also recognised in the field of psychoacoustics, I believe? I liken it to the state of play regarding audio electronics - the standard tests have gotten us so far but to progress further (& I'm sure there is further progression to be made), we need more subtle tests of psychoscoustic relevance.
The problem is that both of these fronts need to progress in tandem - discovering the psychoacoustic factors as they relate to audio reproduction & discovering the measurements which go hand-in-hand with these & are directly related to these psychoacoustic factors.
Unfortunately, it's difficult to move forward on either/both of these fronts in a collaborative way so what happens is that discoveries are made in a haphazard manner, usually without the rigour that would make them acceptable across the board.
We all know what sort of forum fights this leads to
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Oct 22, 2019 11:53:35 GMT 10
Yes, Alex, I'm with you on the "accepted limitations of hearing" being out of date & more realistic tests are needed which is also recognised in the field of psychoacoustics, I believe? I liken it to the state of play regarding audio electronics - the standard tests have gotten us so far but to progress further (& I'm sure there is further progression to be made), we need more subtle tests of psychoscoustic relevance. Hi John In my current working with E.E. John Dyson we are both frequently noticing audible differences well below what have been the previously recognised limitations, in fact a fraction of a dB. John is even more surprised than I am !
Kid Regards Alex
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jkenny
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Post by jkenny on Oct 23, 2019 2:16:38 GMT 10
Hi John In my current working with E.E. John Dyson we are both frequently noticing audible differences well below what have been the previously recognised limitations, in fact a fraction of a dB. John is even more surprised than I am !
Kid Regards Alex
I've always wondered if it's less the absolute dB difference that's being perceived, rather some change in the relationship between different parts of the waveform that is being perceived? And because we have only simple measurements, atm. it is only seen in measurements as a small dB change? It may well be that our auditory perception uses patterns i.e how the sound waveform changes over time - like an auditory fingerprint, if you like & that we are sensitive to a subtle change in pattern. In ordinary measurements this may only show as a small change in dB which is normally dismissed as inaudible. This is the possible weakness that I find in measurements - no device measures perfectly, rather measurements below a certain level are considered audibly insignificant. This is very different from "perfect" & is based on premises that need to be analysed - one being that the measurements are showing everything that is psychoacoustically relevant (which nearly all sane people admit is not a correct premise) & the second premise being that measurement values below a certain level are inaudible. Again we go back to the double bind that we don't really know exactly what to measure that is psychoacoustically significant - both measurements & psychoacoustics need to advance together in lock-step in order to progress but we're at a impasse
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Oct 23, 2019 6:52:13 GMT 10
Hi John In my current working with E.E. John Dyson we are both frequently noticing audible differences well below what have been the previously recognised limitations, in fact a fraction of a dB. John is even more surprised than I am !
Kid Regards Alex
I've always wondered if it's less the absolute dB difference that's being perceived, rather some change in the relationship between different parts of the waveform that is being perceived? And because we have only simple measurements, atm. it is only seen in measurements as a small dB change? It may well be that our auditory perception uses patterns i.e how the sound waveform changes over time - like an auditory fingerprint, if you like & that we are sensitive to a subtle change in pattern. In ordinary measurements this may only show as a small change in dB which is normally dismissed as inaudible. This is the possible weakness that I find in measurements - no device measures perfectly, rather measurements below a certain level are considered audibly insignificant. This is very different from "perfect" & is based on premises that need to be analysed - one being that the measurements are showing everything that is psychoacoustically relevant (which nearly all sane people admit is not a correct premise) & the second premise being that measurement values below a certain level are inaudible. Again we go back to the double bind that we don't really know exactly what to measure that is psychoacoustically significant - both measurements & psychoacoustics need to advance together in lock-step in order to progress but we're at a impasse I suspect that you are correct here. It's not just a simple difference in the level of a fixed frequency. There are obviously changes in frequency and perhaps phase as well ,even with such things as annoying sibilance. They are complex waveforms, which you can see when having a close look at them in Audio Editing S/W. P.S. The poster in another forum who appears to be trying to create a Guinness Book of Records for the highest number of posts in the shortest possible time, suggested the same about complex waveforms after our post on this subject.
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