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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 12:34:46 GMT 10
I just ordered one of these to try in my system. www.russandrews.com/plug-in-rf-router-uk/
I must admit, a lot of the Entreq and Synergistic Research (and so forth) devices really leave me scratching my head. Now, I'm not bagging them at all as I have not used them. All I can say is that the combination of zero measurements and the usual audio magazine pundits raving about "deeper backgrounds, takes 30 minutes to work, need to buy several units to get a better effect etc" plus the very high price really puts me off taking a risk to try these out.
Anyone on Stereonet will hopefully attest that I am by no means against trying out tweaks. I do prefer to have some assurance that there is some grounding (no pun intended) in engineering if not concrete measurements of devices that I try out. So to explain where I'm going with this. The Russ Andrews device is (from what I can deduce) fairly closely related to this - www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ with the exception that instead of attaching to a dedicated ground rod, it uses the existing ground pin in a power outlet. Puritan actually do attempt to provide some evidence - (about 4 mins in).
So on the face of it, this device seems to hold some promise. My Gigawatt PC-2 power filter cuts out noise to the Live but there is no mention of it treating Earth which seems to be the norm with conventional power filters. I am going to try some blind tests with my workmate who is not an audiophile but does have really good listening skills. My setup is very low noise though so even if there was grunge on the Earth and this devices does cut it out, I am not expecting there to be any night and day results (so definite expectation bias )
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 26, 2019 13:34:41 GMT 10
I just ordered one of these to try in my system. www.russandrews.com/plug-in-rf-router-uk/
I must admit, a lot of the Entreq and Synergistic Research (and so forth) devices really leave me scratching my head. Now, I'm not bagging them at all as I have not used them. All I can say is that the combination of zero measurements and the usual audio magazine pundits raving about "deeper backgrounds, takes 30 minutes to work, need to buy several units to get a better effect etc" plus the very high price really puts me off taking a risk to try these out.
Anyone on Stereonet will hopefully attest that I am by no means against trying out tweaks. I do prefer to have some assurance that there is some grounding (no pun intended) in engineering if not concrete measurements of devices that I try out. So to explain where I'm going with this. The Russ Andrews device is (from what I can deduce) fairly closely related to this - www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ with the exception that instead of attaching to a dedicated ground rod, it uses the existing ground pin in a power outlet. Puritan actually do attempt to provide some evidence - (about 4 mins in).
So on the face of it, this device seems to hold some promise. My Gigawatt PC-2 power filter cuts out noise to the Live but there is no mention of it treating Earth which seems to be the norm with conventional power filters. I am going to try some blind tests with my workmate who is not an audiophile but does have really good listening skills. My setup is very low noise though so even if there was grunge on the Earth and this devices does cut it out, I am not expecting there to be any night and day results (so definite expectation bias )
Many would say that that anything from Russ Andrews is likely to be Snake Oil. He used to have quite a history in that area. Some SMPS devices will benefit from connecting the 0 volts of the PSU to mains earth. I have even done that and noted an improvement with my Set Top Box that sends Coax SPDIF to my DIY DAC and into my main system. The problem with many SMPS devices is that due to the obligatory low value capacitor between the AC mains side, and the other side of the HF converter, there is often a measurable A.C. voltage to mains earth of as much as half the A.C. mains supply, albeit at low current. This can even result in nasty bites when plugging them in to an earthed Preamplifier or Power Amplifier. Silicon Chip magazine even published an article on this (send me a PM if you want more details) where they connected a suitably rated capacitor from the metalwork of the CD/DVD player to A.C. mains earth. This residual mains voltage is also quite dirty with other rubbish in it. You can easily explore this area without risk of damage by connecting something like a 100 ohms .5W resistor between the metal work and A.C. mains earth using a 3 pin plug with only a wire connected to mains earth. If I have misunderstood what you are saying please correct me.
Regards Alex
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assisi
New Member
Listening to Music Gender: Male Location: Australia – Central Victoria Posts: 1 Date Registered:
Posts: 3
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Post by assisi on Aug 26, 2019 15:40:35 GMT 10
Scumbag “So to explain where I'm going with this. The Russ Andrews device is (from what I can deduce) fairly closely related to this - www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ with the exception that instead of attaching to a dedicated ground rod, it uses the existing ground pin in a power outlet.”
A while ago not knowing any better, I installed a 3 metre solid copper rod in the ground with bentonite and gypsum and connected that to an earth pin only plug into my Gigawatt conditioner. I was then told that as it was a secondary earth and that it was not safe. I disconnected it. Then I came across the Puritan Ground Master and bought one. I connected it to the copper rod, the case of the conditioner, the pre amp and a Synergistic Tranquility base. There was a small benefit. Two electricians and an engineer have said that everything should be okay. All three initially advised against a secondary that I started with. So far no issues. Overall not an expensive tweak.
John
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 16:24:14 GMT 10
Scumbag “So to explain where I'm going with this. The Russ Andrews device is (from what I can deduce) fairly closely related to this - www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ with the exception that instead of attaching to a dedicated ground rod, it uses the existing ground pin in a power outlet.”
A while ago not knowing any better, I installed a 3 metre solid copper rod in the ground with bentonite and gypsum and connected that to an earth pin only plug into my Gigawatt conditioner. I was then told that as it was a secondary earth and that it was not safe. I disconnected it. Then I came across the Puritan Ground Master and bought one. I connected it to the copper rod, the case of the conditioner, the pre amp and a Synergistic Tranquility base. There was a small benefit. Two electricians and an engineer have said that everything should be okay. All three initially advised against a secondary that I started with. So far no issues. Overall not an expensive tweak.
John Yes, I'm not expecting an earth shattering result out of this. I did think really strongly about getting the Puritan Labs unit instead of the Russ Andrews unit but I just could'nt do the whole "dedicated earth rod" thing. Good to know that everything didn't blow up when you added the Puritan Labs unit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 16:29:47 GMT 10
Scumbag “So to explain where I'm going with this. The Russ Andrews device is (from what I can deduce) fairly closely related to this - www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ with the exception that instead of attaching to a dedicated ground rod, it uses the existing ground pin in a power outlet.”
A while ago not knowing any better, I installed a 3 metre solid copper rod in the ground with bentonite and gypsum and connected that to an earth pin only plug into my Gigawatt conditioner. I was then told that as it was a secondary earth and that it was not safe. I disconnected it. Then I came across the Puritan Ground Master and bought one. I connected it to the copper rod, the case of the conditioner, the pre amp and a Synergistic Tranquility base. There was a small benefit. Two electricians and an engineer have said that everything should be okay. All three initially advised against a secondary that I started with. So far no issues. Overall not an expensive tweak.
John John, I'm not seeing too much SnakeOil on there these days. Maybe I have different standards to others but there actually seems to be a lack of tuning / tweaking stuff on his site. He doesn't even sell anything with the word Quantum in it for goodness sake! Russ Andrews was taken to task about his claims for his power cables and he won the case - www.whathifi.com/news/russ-andrews-wins-asa-case-and-cleared-misleading-consumers - so he seems to be quite switched on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 16:31:19 GMT 10
I lack the equipment and knowledge to actually test the unit when I get it so I'll have to rely on my ears and on the single-blind testing with my workmate. I am not expecting massive results but it's a fun experiment as long as nothing starts to smoke.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 16:34:00 GMT 10
Many would say that that anything from Russ Andrews is likely to be Snake Oil. He used to have quite a history in that area. Some SMPS devices will benefit from connecting the 0 volts of the PSU to mains earth. I have even done that and noted an improvement with my Set Top Box that sends Coax SPDIF to my DIY DAC and into my main system. The problem with many SMPS devices is that due to the obligatory low value capacitor between the AC mains side, and the other side of the HF converter, there is often a measurable A.C. voltage to mains earth of as much as half the A.C. mains supply, albeit at low current. This can even result in nasty bites when plugging them in to an earthed Preamplifier or Power Amplifier. Silicon Chip magazine even published an article on this (send me a PM if you want more details) where they connected a suitably rated capacitor from the metalwork of the CD/DVD player to A.C. mains earth. This residual mains voltage is also quite dirty with other rubbish in it. You can easily explore this area without risk of damage by connecting something like a 100 ohms .5W resistor between the metal work and A.C. mains earth using a 3 pin plug with only a wire connected to mains earth. If I have misunderstood what you are saying please correct me.
Regards Alex
Oh, and I would NEVER put a SMPS in my hifi setup! Seriously though, everything in my listening room is running of linear power supplies, even my Ethernet switch.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 26, 2019 17:19:01 GMT 10
Many would say that that anything from Russ Andrews is likely to be Snake Oil. He used to have quite a history in that area. Some SMPS devices will benefit from connecting the 0 volts of the PSU to mains earth. I have even done that and noted an improvement with my Set Top Box that sends Coax SPDIF to my DIY DAC and into my main system. The problem with many SMPS devices is that due to the obligatory low value capacitor between the AC mains side, and the other side of the HF converter, there is often a measurable A.C. voltage to mains earth of as much as half the A.C. mains supply, albeit at low current. This can even result in nasty bites when plugging them in to an earthed Preamplifier or Power Amplifier. Silicon Chip magazine even published an article on this (send me a PM if you want more details) where they connected a suitably rated capacitor from the metalwork of the CD/DVD player to A.C. mains earth. This residual mains voltage is also quite dirty with other rubbish in it. You can easily explore this area without risk of damage by connecting something like a 100 ohms .5W resistor between the metal work and A.C. mains earth using a 3 pin plug with only a wire connected to mains earth. If I have misunderstood what you are saying please correct me.
Regards Alex
Oh, and I wonder NEVER put a SMPS in my hifi setup! Seriously though, everything in my listening room is running of linear power supplies, even my Ethernet switch. In my setup, the TV is a central part of it, where I even use my DIY DAC and STB for superior TV audio, even excellent surround sound from the 2 stereo speakers with many TV series and movies . TVs are all SMPS powered these days, as are most media players such as my Oppo 103 which I use to play files from USB as well as DVD-A, the odd SACD and BluRay movies.
Do you play movies as well, or only just Audio ? If so you are missing some fabulous Video material, such as the .ts files from USA TV with shows such as Saturday Night Live, which are usually multi channel audio and 1920 x 1080 resolution. They often have special musical guests too. The drawback though is that you need to source then from Usenet and download them. Unfortunately, we are being short changed by the local TV networks HDTV stations except for a few programs. Regards Alex
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 26, 2019 17:28:37 GMT 10
Oh, and I wonder NEVER put a SMPS in my hifi setup! Seriously though, everything in my listening room is running of linear power supplies, even my Ethernet switch. In my setup, the TV is a central part of it, where I even use my DIY DAC and STB for superior TV audio, even excellent surround sound from the 2 stereo speakers with many TV series and movies . TVs are all SMPS powered these days, as are most media players such as my Oppo 103 which I use to play files from USB as well as DVD-A, the odd SACD and BluRay movies.
Do you play movies as well, or only just Audio ? If so you are missing some fabulous Video material, such as the .ts files from USA TV with shows such as Saturday Night Live, which are usually multi channel audio and 1920 x 1080 resolution. They often have special musical guests too. The drawback though is that you need to source them from Usenet and download them. Unfortunately, we are being short changed by the local TV networks HDTV stations except for a few programs. Regards Alex
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jkenny
Full Member
Posts: 83
About Me: Audio equipment designer forever in pursuit of more realistic & engaging music reproduction purely because of the extra enjoyment of music created by such reproduction.
http://Ciunas.biz
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Post by jkenny on Aug 27, 2019 11:17:56 GMT 10
Oh, and I would NEVER put a SMPS in my hifi setup! Seriously though, everything in my listening room is running of linear power supplies, even my Ethernet switch. I'm of the opinion that electrical noise in all its forms is one of the final issues to be overcome in our audio playback systems & is often the reason why digital audio playback systems are often less interesting than analogue playback systems. The problem is that "electrical noise" is generally ignored for a number of reasons - first one being that digital audio is "impervious" to electrical noise that doesn't change bits so the mistaken idea that if the digital data is delivered intact then the signal is perfect. The second problem being that "noise" is a misunderstood term - I have often seen it posted "well if I put my ear to the speaker & I don't hear noise, what's the problem - my system is noise free" They are listening to their system when it's not processing electrical systems i.e playing music - the noise that intertwines with the signal (music) is not heard as noise, as such, but rather perceived by its effect on the music itself - it can often render the music playback less interesting - a take or leave it feeling about the playback. And the really elusive bit is that this is only noticeable when such noise is removed & the dynamics & interest & realism of the music is evident by comparison There are so many facets to noise & I'm no expert but in our systems of interconnected multi-devices, often involving a computer, it is difficult to avoid SMPS internally. There is one thing that SMPS suffer from more than linear PSes - current leakage - which is essentially noise on the ground of the negative supply. This can have the detrimental effect I mentioned above unless it is shunted away from sensitive devices - probably the most sensitive being a DAC. John Swenson has written about this extensively & it seems that one of the best ways to stop this effecting our sensitive devices is to shunt it to ground - SandyK mentioned how to do this - connect a heavy duty wire from any SMPS negative (usually the outside of the DC barrel plug) to mains earth. If you don't use an SMPS as power source but there is definitely one inside your computer then I've seen people reporting big improvements connecting heavy duty wire between the chassis of all the audio devices . Not sure what's at play here but it may provide a lower impedance path for these leakage currents rather than the shields & grounds of interconnecting cables between devices? Don't know about the Groundmaster?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 11:52:11 GMT 10
Oh, and I would NEVER put a SMPS in my hifi setup! Seriously though, everything in my listening room is running of linear power supplies, even my Ethernet switch. I'm of the opinion that electrical noise in all its forms is one of the final issues to be overcome in our audio playback systems & is often the reason why digital audio playback systems are often less interesting than analogue playback systems. The problem is that "electrical noise" is generally ignored for a number of reasons - first one being that digital audio is "impervious" to electrical noise that doesn't change bits so the mistaken idea that if the digital data is delivered intact then the signal is perfect. The second problem being that "noise" is a misunderstood term - I have often seen it posted "well if I put my ear to the speaker & I don't hear noise, what's the problem - my system is noise free" They are listening to their system when it's not processing electrical systems i.e playing music - the noise that intertwines with the signal (music) is not heard as noise, as such, but rather perceived by its effect on the music itself - it can often render the music playback less interesting - a take or leave it feeling about the playback. And the really elusive bit is that this is only noticeable when such noise is removed & the dynamics & interest & realism of the music is evident by comparison There are so many facets to noise & I'm no expert but in our systems of interconnected multi-devices, often involving a computer, it is difficult to avoid SMPS internally. There is one thing that SMPS suffer from more than linear PSes - current leakage - which is essentially noise on the ground of the negative supply. This can have the detrimental effect I mentioned above unless it is shunted away from sensitive devices - probably the most sensitive being a DAC. John Swenson has written about this extensively & it seems that one of the best ways to stop this effecting our sensitive devices is to shunt it to ground - SandyK mentioned how to do this - connect a heavy duty wire from any SMPS negative (usually the outside of the DC barrel plug) to mains earth. If you don't use an SMPS as power source but there is definitely one inside your computer then I've seen people reporting big improvements connecting heavy duty wire between the chassis of all the audio devices . Not sure what's at play here but it may provide a lower impedance path for these leakage currents rather than the shields & grounds of interconnecting cables between devices? Don't know about the Groundmaster? I have managed to eradicate SMP's from my system. My NUC has a DC input. I don't have a TV or any other device that has a SMPS hidden inside in my listening space. I am going to try some experiments with shielded single core cables and try attaching them in various configurations to the Russ Andrews unit. I've read Swenson's comments on DC grounding and I'll be sure to use his general principles with regards to attaching the drain wire at the correct end of the cable.
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jkenny
Full Member
Posts: 83
About Me: Audio equipment designer forever in pursuit of more realistic & engaging music reproduction purely because of the extra enjoyment of music created by such reproduction.
http://Ciunas.biz
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Post by jkenny on Aug 27, 2019 18:26:26 GMT 10
I have managed to eradicate SMP's from my system. My NUC has a DC input. I don't have a TV or any other device that has a SMPS hidden inside in my listening space. I am going to try some experiments with shielded single core cables and try attaching them in various configurations to the Russ Andrews unit. I've read Swenson's comments on DC grounding and I'll be sure to use his general principles with regards to attaching the drain wire at the correct end of the cable. Yea, the NUC or low power consumption computer is the right way to go, even though these still invariably all have DC-DC switchers on board for the varied voltage rails needed by the CPUs & GPUs. But according to Swenson even LPS have some current leakage although far lower than SMPSes (not sure how sonically detrimental this is?) .The best, most relaxed analogue-like sound I've heard came from an SD card player - simple electronics, fed by battery, no switchers or connections to other noise-producing devices. Unfortunately the target use for computers as general purpose computing workhorses often works against the single purpose use for audio. Let us know your experience with the GroundMaster
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Post by ROWUK on Aug 28, 2019 5:31:25 GMT 10
We may have to expand our view. Some of the finest sound quality ever recorded came from systems with miles of wire and the "factory" power supplies. One would think that the electricity problems would be VERY audible on recordings. That has not been the case with "worthy" productions.
I have never heard of any studies done to show if power supply issues are less prevalent on small signal devices compared to high load devices.
There are VERY high quality SMPS available.
If a secondary ground is a problem, then we should address the primary ground - perhaps not between the outlet and the device, rather at the entry point to the house. I understand that the electrical code does not want an audio device to be the shunt if there is a short circuit.
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sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021)
Global Moderator
Posts: 226
About Me: Retired ex Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer with 43 years at Telstra (Australia)
I am also a Moderator in Hi Fi Critic Forum
Electronics hobbyist for >65 years with DIY projects including Loudspeakers, Stereo FM tuner, S/W Regen Receiver, Superhet AM ,
Synchrodyne PLL AM tuner (Phase Lock Loop),Stereo Tape Deck, Amplifiers including I.C. types, Class A, Class AB 100W/Ch. (ETI5000) 240W/Ch. Mosfet (AEM6000) ,several DACs , numerous PSUs including VERY low noise (<4uV) types etc.for myself and friends
Audio Industry Affiliation: NIL
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Post by sandyk (RIP Alex, 1939 - 2021) on Aug 28, 2019 8:44:36 GMT 10
We may have to expand our view. Some of the finest sound quality ever recorded came from systems with miles of wire and the "factory" power supplies. One would think that the electricity problems would be VERY audible on recordings. That has not been the case with "worthy" productions. I have never heard of any studies done to show if power supply issues are less prevalent on small signal devices compared to high load devices. There are VERY high quality SMPS available. If a secondary ground is a problem, then we should address the primary ground - perhaps not between the outlet and the device, rather at the entry point to the house. I understand that the electrical code does not want an audio device to be the shunt if there is a short circuit. Hi Robin Yes, there are some very high quality MPS available, but they aren't used in most affordable devices such as DVD and BluRay players. I can email you a copy of an article from Silicon Chip magazine that details this issue.
Regards Alex
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Post by Audiophile Neuroscience on Aug 28, 2019 11:38:56 GMT 10
Scumbag “So to explain where I'm going with this. The Russ Andrews device is (from what I can deduce) fairly closely related to this - www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ with the exception that instead of attaching to a dedicated ground rod, it uses the existing ground pin in a power outlet.”
A while ago not knowing any better, I installed a 3 metre solid copper rod in the ground with bentonite and gypsum and connected that to an earth pin only plug into my Gigawatt conditioner. I was then told that as it was a secondary earth and that it was not safe. I disconnected it. Then I came across the Puritan Ground Master and bought one. I connected it to the copper rod, the case of the conditioner, the pre amp and a Synergistic Tranquility base. There was a small benefit. Two electricians and an engineer have said that everything should be okay. All three initially advised against a secondary that I started with. So far no issues. Overall not an expensive tweak.
John Yes, I'm not expecting an earth shattering result out of this. I did think really strongly about getting the Puritan Labs unit instead of the Russ Andrews unit but I just could'nt do the whole "dedicated earth rod" thing. Good to know that everything didn't blow up when you added the Puritan Labs unit I have read extensively on the topic and from the usual sources like Ott and Whitlock and others. I came out more confused than when I started ! I did go with a separate earth as I didnt want to share an earth with my audio gear and my fridge etc. I had an electrical engineer actually install what he described as a "technical earth" and compliant with Australian MEN system at the main switchboard. I gather No, you cant just go and shove a new earth rod in the ground due to possible electrical potential differences and risk of electrical shock to people.
A technical earth is apparently used in hospitals, some IT settings and some broadcast studios that the engineer had worked in. Did it make a difference to the sound? Not sure as it was done alongside other changes when I was setting up my music room.
David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - - Louis Armstrong
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